[Church?
Gooch,
Two points:
1. It is a logical conclusion from the fact that some are saved by Baptism of Desire and Blood. They cannot be outside the Church, as there is no salvation outside the Church. They cannot be members of the Church, as that can only be accomplished through Baptism, and last, membership must be visible.
It is obvious that there is only one way to explain this, and Fenton does so brilliantly. Non-members who through Baptism of Desire or Blood can be saved despite their lack of membership. They are visibly not members, but united to the Church invisibly through their desire.
2. Pope Pius XII taught:
As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church (qui ad adspectabilem, non pertinent Catholicae Ecclesiae compagem), solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ," and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation (in quo de sempiterna cuiusque propria salute securi esse non possunt). For even though by an unconscious desire and longing (inscio quodam desiderio ac voto) they have a certain relationship (ordinentur) with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ (in una Iesu Christi Corporis compagine coniuncti), may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home.
. Mystici Corporis, # 103
The Holy Office in a letter approved by Pope Pius XII taught:
The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.
Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is-composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed."
Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who "are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church" (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution, Singulari quadam, in Denzinger, n. 1641 ff.; also Pope Pius IX in the encyclical letter, Quanto conficiamur moerore, in Denzinger, n. 1677).
. Letter of the Holy Office, August 8, 1949.[/quote]
point 1. obviously I disagree that it's a fact that some can be saved by bod, this is the debate. I don't see anything brilliant in how Fenton explains " Non-members who through Baptism of Desire or Blood can be saved despite their lack of membership."
point 2
I'll quote the Dimonds here
It’s very interesting that even a heretical defender of Protocol 122/49, Msgr. Fenton,
admits that “sure” is a seriously misleading translation.
Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, The Catholic Church and Salvation, 1958, p. 88:
“Many of the published translations of the Mystici Corporis Christi employ the
expression ‘in which they cannot be sure of their salvation’ in rendering this
clause into English. This terminology is both inexact and seriously
misleading.”623
Fenton goes on to point out that the mistranslation gives the impression that
Catholics can be sure of their salvation, which is a heresy condemned by the Council of
Trent (Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 9).
The other part of Mystici Corporis that has been incorrectly translated by many to
further weaken and to pervert the actual words of Pius XII is the phrase, in Latin:
“quandoquidem, etiamsi inscio quodam desiderio ac voto ad mysticuм Redemptoris Corpus
ordinentur” has been mistranslated by many to read: “For even though unsuspectingly they
are related in desire and resolution to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer...” This is a
deliberate mistranslation which alters the meaning of Pius XII’s words. I will quote Bro.
Robert Mary in Father Feeney and the Truth About Salvation to explain why this is an
incorrect translation.
“The abused word is ordinentur. The book, A Latin‐English Dictionary of St.
Thomas Aquinas, by Roy J. Deferrari, gives us the following meanings for the
Latin verb ordino: ‘Ordino, are, avi, atum – (1) to order, to set in order, to
arrange, to adjust, to dispose, (2) to ordain...”
“Since the Pope uses the subjunctive mood to express a contingency of
uncertainty, not a fact, the translation should read:
‘For, even though they may be disposed toward (or ordained toward) the
mystic Body of the Redeemer, by a certain unknowing desire and resolution...’
“In other words, the only thing this ‘certain unknowing desire and
resolution’ (inscio quodam desiderio ac voto) may be doing for these non‐
Catholics is setting them in order for entrance into, or return to, the Church. In
no way does the Pope say, as fact, that they are ‘related’ to the Mystical Body of
the Redeemer, much less ‘united to it.’”624
252
Bro. Robert Mary has astutely pointed out how it is false to say that Pius XII taught
that some non‐Catholics are “related” to the Church by unknowing desire, and that Pius
XII certainly did not teach that some non‐Catholics are “united” to the Church. But this
is how one finds Mystici Corporis translated in many papers, especially those written by
priests who deny the dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation.
While the important observation above shows how wrong the modern heretics’
treatment of Mystici Corporis is, there is no doubt that Pius XII’s statement in the above
passage – even correctly translated – is still pathetically weak, and opens the door for
liberal heretics to claim that he endorsed the heresy that non‐Catholics can be saved by
their unknowing desire for the Catholic faith. Its weakness displays the mindset of a man
who allowed heresy against the dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation to run
rampant in the seminaries, theology texts and Catechisms during his reign, even if not
explicitly taught by him. Pius XII had no business talking about the supposed
unknowing desire and resolution of non‐Catholics, even if he didn’t assert that such
could be saved. Everyone knows that even the mention of such a thing causes
modernists to salivate like dogs over a tasty meal. Pius XII should have addressed non‐
Catholics in the manner of Pope Leo XII, and he should have reaffirmed that non‐
Catholics will surely perish if they don’t hold the Catholic faith in the manner of
Gregory XVI.
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to
be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver
of regeneration and profess the true faith.”627
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who
have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy
orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
have not received this consecration.”628
These two statements exclude the idea that one can be saved by even an explicit
desire for baptism, since they affirm that those who have not received the Sacrament of
Baptism are not Christians or members of the Church or members of Christ. (Those who
are not Christians or members of the Church or members of Christ cannot be saved.)
Topic: The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire. (Read 19541 times)