Author Topic: The Horrified Heroin BODers (Read 5623 times)

bowler · « **Reply #45 on:** January 15, 2014, 12:40:29 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

The above is a HELLO? post.

No, it is another obscurist posting of yours. We are talking here about your Heroin BOD belief, and you are attempting to divert the discussion away from your belief.

SouthpawLink · « **Reply #46 on:** January 15, 2014, 12:40:40 PM »

For Neil Obstat,

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=14039&min=225&num=5

Thank you kindly, Lover of Truth. AMDG.

bowler,
Obviously not, as in my first post I affirmed the necessity of explicit faith. In my second post, I objected to another poster who claimed that BoD is a negotiable, up-for-debate teaching.

Ambrose · « **Reply #47 on:** January 15, 2014, 01:06:21 PM »

Quote

(WARNING : We are not discussing here baptism of desire of the catechumen, nor baptism of blood, nor any BOD which requires a desire to be a Catholic and belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. Be forewarned anyone that posts here in favor of BOD is talking strictly about Heroin BOD.)

There is no such thing as Heroin BOD.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #48 on:** January 15, 2014, 02:10:26 PM »

Quote

(WARNING : We are not discussing here baptism of desire of the catechumen, nor baptism of blood, nor any BOD which requires a desire to be a Catholic and belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. Be forewarned anyone that posts here in favor of BOD is talking strictly about Heroin BOD.)

Southpaw, are you defending Heroin BOD?

We are talking about the error of the Feeneyits = No Salvation Outside of Water

Versus the Church's understanding of her necessity in regards to salvation.

Non-members, with supernatural faith and perfect charity can be saved within the Church if they die in a state of sanctifying grace.

We are pitting the Catholic Church (Jerome, Augustine, Bernard, Ambrose, Thomas Aquinas, Bellarmine, Ligori, Pius IX, Pius XII)

Verses:

Feeney, the Dimond brothers and their followers.

Any Feeneyite that wants to step forward and admit that you believe the above mentioned theologians, Saints, Fathers, Doctors and Popes are right when they teach it is possible for non-members to be saved within the Church please feel free to do so. But don't act like this is a theological debate on when BOD is possible and when it is not when you do not accept BOD at all as such could be considered intellectually dishonest. And that is a no no for true Catholics. No?

Mabel · « **Reply #49 on:** January 15, 2014, 02:14:21 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote
(WARNING : We are not discussing here baptism of desire of the catechumen, nor baptism of blood, nor any BOD which requires a desire to be a Catholic and belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. Be forewarned anyone that posts here in favor of BOD is talking strictly about Heroin BOD.)

Southpaw, are you defending Heroin BOD?

We are talking about the error of the Feeneyits = No Salvation Outside of Water

Versus the Church's understanding of her necessity in regards to salvation.

Non-members, with supernatural faith and perfect charity can be saved within the Church if they die in a state of sanctifying grace.

We are pitting the Catholic Church (Jerome, Augustine, Bernard, Ambrose, Thomas Aquinas, Bellarmine, Ligori, Pius IX, Pius XII)

Verses:

Feeney, the Dimond brothers and their followers.

Any Feeneyite that wants to step forward and admit that you believe the above mentioned theologians, Saints, Fathers, Doctors and Popes are right when they teach it is possible for non-members to be saved within the Church please feel free to do so. But don't act like this is a theological debate on when BOD is possible and when it is not when you do not accept BOD at all as such could be considered intellectually dishonest. And that is a no no for true Catholics. No?

I'd rather stand with popes and saints and flee anyone telling me they were wrong.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #50 on:** January 15, 2014, 02:16:39 PM »

Quote from: SouthpawLink

For Neil Obstat,

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=14039&min=225&num=5

Thank you kindly, Lover of Truth. AMDG.

bowler,
Obviously not, as in my first post I affirmed the necessity of explicit faith. In my second post, I objected to another poster who claimed that BoD is a negotiable, up-for-debate teaching.

You are quite welcome. But more importantly, thank YOU! AMDG for sure!!! He is not an arbitrary tyrant that damns the innocent to eternal torture.

bowler · « **Reply #51 on:** January 15, 2014, 03:32:37 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote
(WARNING : We are not discussing here baptism of desire of the catechumen, nor baptism of blood, nor any BOD which requires a desire to be a Catholic and belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. Be forewarned anyone that posts here in favor of BOD is talking strictly about Heroin BOD.)

There is no such thing as Heroin BOD.

You got that right at least. However, Heroin BOD is what you believe.

bowler · « **Reply #52 on:** January 15, 2014, 03:34:38 PM »

Quote from: SouthpawLink

For bowler,
Obviously not, as in my first post I affirmed the necessity of explicit faith. In my second post, I objected to another poster who claimed that BoD is a negotiable, up-for-debate teaching.

Then I'll ask you:

Which teaching do you think is dangerous #1 or #2?

1) to believe that anyone in any false religion can be saved even if the have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or to be baptized, nor explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity. (=Heroin BOD of Amdro, Lover of Truth, SJB)

2) St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And well should the pagan lament, who not knowing God, dying goes straight to punishment. Well should the Jew mourn, who not believing in Christ, has assigned his soul to perdition.”

Ambrose · « **Reply #53 on:** January 15, 2014, 06:11:32 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote
(WARNING : We are not discussing here baptism of desire of the catechumen, nor baptism of blood, nor any BOD which requires a desire to be a Catholic and belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. Be forewarned anyone that posts here in favor of BOD is talking strictly about Heroin BOD.)

There is no such thing as Heroin BOD.

You got that right at least. However, Heroin BOD is what you believe.

I believe what the Church teaches and only what the Church teaches. I reject nothing, not one iota.

It seems to me that you and your friends on here accept 99%, but that is not good enough. Many heretics also accepted 99%, but fell short by rejecting only one doctrine.

Why not just accept the Faith, whole and entire? It's easy, it's just one act of the will.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #54 on:** January 16, 2014, 02:09:51 AM »

Quote from: SouthpawLink

For Neil Obstat,

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=14039&min=225&num=5

Huh?

You want to refer to a thread that started and ended 3 years ago? And that would be for what?

.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #55 on:** January 16, 2014, 02:20:34 AM »

.

It's really funny how Amdro and his buddies deny the pope, and the bishops and the priests and claim that Vat.II is of the devil and they hate the Newmass.

But they agree in principle with the basis of everything Newchurch when they agree with heroin BoD.

They are a living self-contradiction.......... Kind of schizophrenic, actually.

Maybe we should pity them, if they're unwell. Pope Francis would have pity on them.

.

soulguard · « **Reply #56 on:** January 16, 2014, 10:28:11 AM »

I dont see why Christ would institute a sacrament and tell his apostles to baptize all nations IF it was not necessary for salvation.

People need to get away from this notion that you have "rights" before God.
You have no rights.
You are a slug who contaminates everything with your slime.
You have no rights.
So IF you think that living a "good" life gets you to heaven, without the sacraments of baptism or confession, then you are wrong.
These sacraments would not exist if they did not fulfill some purpose to save you.
If you believe in sacramental effect by desire, you rob the church of its power to bind and loose - because the church doesnt actually do anything to save you.
ITS ALL MESSED UP. :stare:

SouthpawLink · « **Reply #57 on:** January 16, 2014, 11:14:22 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: SouthpawLink
For bowler,
Obviously not, as in my first post I affirmed the necessity of explicit faith. In my second post, I objected to another poster who claimed that BoD is a negotiable, up-for-debate teaching.

Then I'll ask you:

Which teaching do you think is dangerous #1 or #2?

1) to believe that anyone in any false religion can be saved even if the have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or to be baptized, nor explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity. (=Heroin BOD of Amdro, Lover of Truth, SJB)

2) St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And well should the pagan lament, who not knowing God, dying goes straight to punishment. Well should the Jew mourn, who not believing in Christ, has assigned his soul to perdition.”

Number 1 is false and therefore dangerous; my only objection, however, is that I think there can be such a thing as an implicit desire (cf. Suprema Haec Sacra), but even this must be accompanied by divine faith (including explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and in the Incarnation) and perfect charity. It is not possible to be saved in any religion whatsoever, but only in the Catholic religion.

Number 2 is perfectly true.

bowler · « **Reply #58 on:** January 16, 2014, 11:43:21 AM »

Quote from: SouthpawLink

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: SouthpawLink
For bowler,
Obviously not, as in my first post I affirmed the necessity of explicit faith. In my second post, I objected to another poster who claimed that BoD is a negotiable, up-for-debate teaching.

Then I'll ask you:

Which teaching do you think is dangerous #1 or #2?

1) to believe that anyone in any false religion can be saved even if the have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or to be baptized, nor explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity. (=Heroin BOD of Amdro, Lover of Truth, SJB)

2) St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And well should the pagan lament, who not knowing God, dying goes straight to punishment. Well should the Jew mourn, who not believing in Christ, has assigned his soul to perdition.”

Number 1 is false and therefore dangerous; my only objection, however, is that I think there can be such a thing as an implicit desire (cf. Suprema Haec Sacra), but even this must be accompanied by divine faith (including explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and in the Incarnation) and perfect charity. It is not possible to be saved in any religion whatsoever, but only in the Catholic religion.

Number 2 is perfectly true.

Basically you are saying that you limit your belief in BOD to baptism of explicit desire to be baptized with explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity
and also
BOD of implicit desire to be baptized, implied by the explicit desire to be a Catholic with explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity (the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri?)

Personally, I don't believe there has ever been a person saved by BOB or BOD, (read by signature quotes below.) Is my belief a heresy or have the Fathers that taught it, and the saints that believed it been declared heretics? Is my belief in a "strict EENS", a literal belief in John 3:5, harmful like Heroin BOD to potential converts, or hasn't it always been beneficial?

bowler · « **Reply #59 on:** January 16, 2014, 12:30:06 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

I dont see why Christ would institute a sacrament and tell his apostles to baptize all nations IF it was not necessary for salvation.

Quote

From CI thread:"Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written"

the Heroin BODer, as a determinist, believes that the Holy Ghost would make all the clear dogmatic decrees on EENS and the Sacrament of Baptism, and NEVER ONCE teaching any form of baptism of desire infallibly, while at the same time EVERY SINGLE clear dogmatic decree does not mean what they say. In other words, they believe that God from before he created the world, thought of this "system" of teaching infallible something which does not mean what it says. AFTERALL, the Heroin BODer believes that someone can be saved who has no belief in Christ and the Trinity, nor has any explicit desire to be baptized, or to be a Catholic. Only a determinist could come up with such a "god", a god who has no control over the events of life, a god who's grace is useless.