Author Topic: The Necessity of the Sacraments (Read 69048 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2024, 07:50:33 AM »

Quote from: JoeZ on February 18, 2024, 06:08:30 PM

Pope St. Zosimus, The Council of Carthage, Canon on Sin and Grace, 417 A.D.- “It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: ‘In my Father’s house there are many mansions’ [John 14:2]: that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema.”

Interesting quote, but it speaks to a middle place WITHIN the Kingdom, and does not rule out some middle place (Limbo Infantium) outside the Kingdom proper. We understand the Kingdom as entailing the Beatific Vision and adopted into the supernatural family of the Holy Trinity.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2024, 07:52:36 AM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on February 21, 2024, 07:43:36 AM

Pope Siricius speaks of infants, and the aforementioned are like infants in that the receipt of the sacrament is absolutely necessary for them, just as it is for infants.

Nice try, but Pope St. Siricius is not speaking of only those who have the improper dispositions for the Sacrament, but clearly states that each and every one of those desiring Baptism would forfeit the Kingdom without the Sacrament, not just those who "lack perfect contrition".

DecemRationis · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2024, 07:53:21 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on February 21, 2024, 07:46:23 AM

That's hogwash. Catholic theologians have always held the Sacrament of Baptism to be necessary by necessity of means and the Holy Communion to be necessary by necessity of precept and by moral necessity. You can find that treated succinctly in the Catholic Encyclopedia and anywhere else. This isn't "the Dimonds".

First, I think the "necessary by necessity of means" needs to be scrutinized, and that's the point of looking at actual Magisterial statements. What exactly does that mean?

Second, you say "all theologians." How about a doctor theologian? Here's St. Bonaventure, from his commentary on the Sentences of Peter Lombard:

Quote

Reply Obj. 4. The last objection has already been resolved: for it is called a necessary sacrament, not because without it a man cannot be saved, but because he is bound to it if he can, and neglecting it, he cannot be saved.

https://thecenturion1.wordpress.com/2024/01/01/st-bonaventure-on-those-who-receive-only-the-reality-of-baptism/

That sounds like the sacrament of baptism, not "baptism" in the sense of regeneration, is preceptual. Doesn't it?

DecemRationis · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2024, 07:53:52 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on February 21, 2024, 07:52:36 AM

Nice try, but Pope St. Siricius is not speaking of only those who have the improper dispositions for the Sacrament, but clearly states that each and every one of those desiring Baptism would forfeit the Kingdom without the Sacrament, not just those who are ill disposed.

Asserts you. Big deal.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2024, 07:54:30 AM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on February 21, 2024, 07:53:21 AM

First, I think the "necessary by necessity of means" needs to be scrutinized, and that the point of looking at actual Magisterial statements. What exactly does that mean?

Terms are well understood and clearly defined by Catholic theologians. Baptism they hold to be necessary by absolute necessity of means. Not by necessity of precept, not by a relative necessity.

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: The Necessity of the Sacraments (Read 69048 times)

Ladislaus

Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments

Ladislaus

Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments

DecemRationis

Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments

DecemRationis

Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments

Ladislaus

Re: The Necessity of the Sacraments