Quote from: SJB

Quote from: bowler

I'm not going to waste my time talking about baptism of blood. I have not heard any case of BOB since like 1700 years ago. The only reason why people today discuss BOB is to open the door to salvation for anyone in any false religion.

You know the admission of BOB destroys your stupid ideas on the sacrament of baptism being required for all persons and in all cases. It's a problem for your position, but you know you can't deny it's existence.

To the casual observer, they may miss this point.  Bowler is holding a less extreme position than the others.  

I am surprised the "water or damnation" crowd have not attacked him yet.

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: bowler

I'm not going to waste my time talking about baptism of blood. I have not heard any case of BOB since like 1700 years ago. The only reason why people today discuss BOB is to open the door to salvation for anyone in any false religion.

You know the admission of BOB destroys your stupid ideas on the sacrament of baptism being required for all persons and in all cases. It's a problem for your position, but you know you can't deny it's existence.

To the casual observer, they may miss this point.  Bowler is holding a less extreme position than the others.  

I am surprised the "water or damnation" crowd have not attacked him yet.

You only say that because you do not get the clue about why he is saying what he says.

You got that right Stubborn. What I said is akin to me saying that I don't want to bother cleaning dust on the barn window sill, when the barn is chest deep in cow manure. Let's clean up the chest deep manure of Heroin BOD, the foundation stone of Vatican II's revolutionary progressivists teachings on ecuмenism and religious liberty. Dust on a barn window sill ain't going to kill anyone, cleaning it can wait.

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Cantarella

St Alphonsus is not infallible. Fallible people in the Church can make theological mistakes and lead us astray.

St Alphonsus says: “Baptism by fire, however, is the perfect conversion to God through contrition, or the love of God above all things, with the explicit desire, or implicit desire, for the true river of baptism.  As the Council of Trent says (Sess. 14, Chap. 4), it takes the place of the latter with regard to the remission of the guilt, but does not imprint a character nor take away all the debt of punishment.  It is called fire because it is made under the impulse of the Holy Spirit, who is given this name… Thus it is of faith (de fide) that men are saved even by the baptism of fire, according to c. Apostolicam, de pres. non bapt. and the Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 4, where it is said that no one can be saved without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

The passage which St. Alphonsus brings from the Council of Trent, does not teach baptism of desire, but affirms the words of Our Lord in John 3:5. In the mentioned passage, the Church is referring to Justification, not Salvation. It is simply teaching what cannot be lacking for  justification at this point, not what is sufficient for its attainment.  The Church is teaching here that Justification cannot be effected without the desire for Baptism. It is not telling us at this point what will effect Justification (let alone Salvation), but rather stating a necessity (of desire) for Justification to occur.

Ambrose, if were to believe everything that fallible theologians teach, where can we obtain the truth when these same theologians disagree or contradict each other?  

Of course St. Alphonsus is not infallible, that is not at issue.  He is witnessing to a fact, and that fact is that Trent taught Baptism of Desire.  I have read it myself, and I can assure you that it is right there just as he said it was.  

Btw, St. Alphonsus was not the only one to state this fact, many other theologians witnessed to this same fact.  The Holy Office said the same.  

Trent taught Baptism of Desire.  It is a fact.  Anyone can read it.  I have posted it here on this forum, and you can look it up to yourself.  

Those with an agenda to suppress this fact are deeply troubled by this, as they know what it means, that their lies are not working.  Their 60 year old heresy has been exposed.  Baptism of Desire is de fide.  

Catholics will no longer fall for their tricks.  The truth is now clear, and all can see the heresy with the full light of day.  

do you agree with St. Alphonsus here? ..yes or no?
St. Alphonsus: “See also the special love which God has shown you in
bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic
or true Church.  How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews,
among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.”

My comments are inserted in red and a final question below in black:

Quote from: Ambrose

Bowler,

You still haven't answered me, despite repeated requests, and you call me evasive?  I will ask again, support your allegation against me that I do not believe in the Thomistic teaching on the necessity of belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation.  When you can't support it, I will expect an apology for stating a falsehood about me, as any man would do when he misrepresents another.  

Btw, I did not post a book, just an article.  It very clearly explains the teaching of the Church from a theologian.  It won't take more than an hour to read.

But to sum up:

I believe in Baptism of Blood. (OK)
I believe in Baptism of Desire. (The Heroin BODers are masters of the VatII Orwellian double think, therefore, one needs to be VERY precise when discussing this subject:

Are you saying that you believe in  baptism of explicit desire to be a Catholic with explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity)?


Regarding Implicit Desire, I believe the majority position. (You need to be precise:

Do you mean implicit desire to be baptized, implied by the explicit desire  to be a Catholic with explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity (the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri?)


Regarding Implicit Desire, I recognize that the Holy See has permitted the minority opinion, and I will not speak against it. (You need to be precise:

Do you mean implicit faith in Christ and the Trinity, implied by the explicit belief in a god that rewards, for those that are invincible ignorant.

Or do you mean implicit faith in Christ and the Trinity, implied by the explicit desire in a god that rewards, in other words, the belief that anyone can be saved in any false religion, not just the invincible ignorant.)


Is this clear enough? (no, not at all) .

Perhaps once you have stated clearly your beliefs you would also like to answer my question from another thread:

Quote

Which teaching do you think is dangerous #1 or #2?

 1) to believe that anyone in any false religion can be saved even if the have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or to be baptized, nor explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity.
 
2) St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And well should the pagan lament, who not knowing God, dying goes straight to punishment. Well should the Jew mourn, who not believing in Christ, has assigned his soul to perdition.”


 

Quote from: bowler

My comments are inserted in red and a final question below in black:

Quote from: Ambrose

Bowler,

You still haven't answered me, despite repeated requests, and you call me evasive?  I will ask again, support your allegation against me that I do not believe in the Thomistic teaching on the necessity of belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation.  When you can't support it, I will expect an apology for stating a falsehood about me, as any man would do when he misrepresents another.  

Btw, I did not post a book, just an article.  It very clearly explains the teaching of the Church from a theologian.  It won't take more than an hour to read.

But to sum up:

I believe in Baptism of Blood. (OK)
I believe in Baptism of Desire. (The Heroin BODers are masters of the VatII Orwellian double think, therefore, one needs to be VERY precise when discussing this subject:

Are you saying that you believe in  baptism of explicit desire to be a Catholic with explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity)?


Regarding Implicit Desire, I believe the majority position. (You need to be precise:

Do you mean implicit desire to be baptized, implied by the explicit desire  to be a Catholic with explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity (the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri?)


Regarding Implicit Desire, I recognize that the Holy See has permitted the minority opinion, and I will not speak against it. (You need to be precise:

Do you mean implicit faith in Christ and the Trinity, implied by the explicit belief in a god that rewards, for those that are invincible ignorant.

Or do you mean implicit faith in Christ and the Trinity, implied by the explicit desire in a god that rewards, in other words, the belief that anyone can be saved in any false religion, not just the invincible ignorant.)


Is this clear enough? (no, not at all) .

Perhaps once you have stated clearly your beliefs you would also like to answer my question from another thread:

Quote

Which teaching do you think is dangerous #1 or #2?

 1) to believe that anyone in any false religion can be saved even if the have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or to be baptized, nor explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity.
 
2) St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And well should the pagan lament, who not knowing God, dying goes straight to punishment. Well should the Jew mourn, who not believing in Christ, has assigned his soul to perdition.”


 

I was precise, I referred you to a ten page article that I stated I agreed completely with to answer the finer points.  If you want a complete exact detailed statement of my beliefs on Baptism of Desire, then read Msgr. Fenton's book, The Catholic Church and Salvation, found HERE.  I believe everything that is explained in that book.

Btw, don't think I missed your evasion yet again.  I did take note.  

Bowler said: Do we have to read a book to know what you believe? Just answer Gooch's questions are you capable of that? Honestly, all you Heroin BODers are the same, you are always hiding your real belief because you know how ridiculous it reads.


 I believe that the only way one can be saved is by dying a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace ( a Catholic who believes in the Incarnation and the Trinity, and loves the Blessed Mother)? That is Bowler's position. You see how easy it is to explain! ....
 Speak clearly like a man, not like all these Heroin BOD rats in the shadows!