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Author Topic: The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.  (Read 19615 times)

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Offline andysloan

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The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
« Reply #180 on: January 14, 2014, 11:59:27 AM »
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  • On the contrary Bowler, you are blind and the cause of this can be seen in the offensive manner in which you treat of the brothers:

       

    Wisdom 1:4


    "For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins."



    You may delude yourself of your error:

       

    Proverbs 12:15


    "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels."



    But to those who can see, your card is marked.



    2 Timothy 3:7-9


    "Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Mambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith.  But they shall proceed no farther; for their folly shall be manifest to all men, as theirs also was."


    Hopefully you will come to your senses in due time:


    As St Thomas says:

    "On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, "

    Offline Jehanne

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #181 on: January 14, 2014, 12:03:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Concerning Andysloan, his defenses are 99% his own scriptural interpretations. If I did that in defense of my postion I'd be laughed out of CI.


    Bowler,

    Go back to my OP.  What was the Council of Florence trying to teach us when it declared:

    Quote
    "By these measures the synod intends to detract in nothing from the sayings and writings of the holy doctors who discourse on these matters. On the contrary, it accepts and embraces them according to their true understanding as commonly expounded and declared by these doctors and other catholic teachers in the theological schools."


    What do you think that the Council was trying to teach us with the above words?  And, please, be specific to this question alone.  For instance, can you define for us what you think the Council meant by the term "theological schools"?  What, Bowler, would constitute a "theological school"?  Can you give us an example?  (Hint:  The University of Paris.)  How about a "catholic teacher"?  Can you name a single "catholic teacher" from a "theological school"?


    Offline bowler

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #182 on: January 14, 2014, 12:14:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: bowler
    Concerning Andysloan, his defenses are 99% his own scriptural interpretations. If I did that in defense of my postion I'd be laughed out of CI.


    Bowler,

    Go back to my OP.  What was the Council of Florence trying to teach us when it declared:

    Quote
    "By these measures the synod intends to detract in nothing from the sayings and writings of the holy doctors who discourse on these matters. On the contrary, it accepts and embraces them according to their true understanding as commonly expounded and declared by these doctors and other catholic teachers in the theological schools."


    What do you think that the Council was trying to teach us with the above words?  And, please, be specific to this question alone.  For instance, can you define for us what you think the Council meant by the term "theological schools"?  What, Bowler, would constitute a "theological school"?  Can you give us an example?  (Hint:  The University of Paris.)  How about a "catholic teacher"?  Can you name a single "catholic teacher" from a "theological school"?


    The council of Florence covered many subjects, it is an outrages assumption on your part that it meant exactly what you want it to say. Your defense is laughable. I'd be embarrassed to say such a thing in defense of my position.
    Look at my thread "Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written". These are clear direct quotes. What do you answer with? The above comment. It's a joke.

    Offline Binechi

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #183 on: January 14, 2014, 01:34:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Director
    Are you saying that there is more then 'One Baptism" for the remission of Sin ??

    That's a Question ,,, The answer is (yes) or (no)


    No.

    Are you saying that the term "one baptism" in the creed is teaching against Baptism of Desire and Blood rather than a statement against re-baptism.

    There is only one baptism, it cannot be repeated.  If one falls from the Faith into heresy, and returns he cannot be baptized again.


    What I am saying and according to the Nicene Creed, is that , "There is only One Baptism for the Remission of Sin.  The Sin we are talking about is ,"Original Sin".  
    The Church does not teach there is another way to remover Original Sin, not thru "desire" , not thru Blood, not thru "Three forms of Baptism"

    We acknowledge each Sunday in the Credo, in every Roman Rite Mass.

    "One Baptism for the Remission of Sin",, Dogma

    Is it your belief that there are "three avenues to Salvation". (water, desire and blood) ??

    Offline Ambrose

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #184 on: January 14, 2014, 02:01:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Director
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Director
    Are you saying that there is more then 'One Baptism" for the remission of Sin ??

    That's a Question ,,, The answer is (yes) or (no)


    No.

    Are you saying that the term "one baptism" in the creed is teaching against Baptism of Desire and Blood rather than a statement against re-baptism.

    There is only one baptism, it cannot be repeated.  If one falls from the Faith into heresy, and returns he cannot be baptized again.


    What I am saying and according to the Nicene Creed, is that , "There is only One Baptism for the Remission of Sin.  The Sin we are talking about is ,"Original Sin".  
    The Church does not teach there is another way to remover Original Sin, not thru "desire" , not thru Blood, not thru "Three forms of Baptism"

    We acknowledge each Sunday in the Credo, in every Roman Rite Mass.

    "One Baptism for the Remission of Sin",, Dogma

    Is it your belief that there are "three avenues to Salvation". (water, desire and blood) ??


    Baptism of Desire and Blood are exceptions, not the norm.  They are both avenues for salvation.

    Now a question for you, do you submit to the Council of Trent and accept the de fide teaching, Baptism of Desire, as explained by St. Alphonsus and many other theologians.  A simple yes or no will suffice.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #185 on: January 14, 2014, 02:15:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Ambrose, Lover of Truth, and SJB (see *) really have no business in this discussion with Andysloan, since they believe in the Heroin BOD, the belief that that anyone in any false religion can be saved even if they do not explicitly desire to be Catholics, or baptized, nor believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity.

    Andysloan "said" that he rejects the Heroin BOD teachings believed by Ambrose, Lover of Truth  and SJB. (though I doubt that he rejects it, for once one smokes the relatively harmless drug of BOD of the catechumen, they always end up as Heroin BODers)

    Concerning Andysloan, his defenses are 99% his own scriptural interpretations. If I did that in defense of my postion I'd be laughed out of CI.

    * I have Ambrose, Lover of Truth, and SJB on my HIDE list, so I don't see what they are posting, only there names when they post.



    This is an honer and I am not being facetious.  Ambrose and SJB are very good company.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Binechi

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #186 on: January 14, 2014, 03:35:33 PM »
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  • De fide.... Absolutly Not ....

    Since when is it that a Theologian has the authority to designate something to be "De Fide".  

    A Saint or Theologian are fallible humans and are capable of error, of which some have had in their writings.  It takes a Pope, or Pope in Council to make a decision as far as something being "de fide",  We all know how St Thomas was wrong.
     
    If you run thru the readings on the infallible Vat I Council , you will see that it takes a "unanimous consent of the fathers", to determine if something is "de fide" , and part of the Church s official teaching.  Even a Pope cannot go against the unanimous consent of the fathers on defining a Church teaching.

    As far as "avenues to salvation",  Ridiculous ... Only way to Salvation is  
    entering the Church thru Sacramental Baptism.  Trent mentions no other way.
    The words Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood are not mention anywhere , in its session on Baptism ,or under the Sacraments.  

    Read what PPXII says about "Theologians"..

    PPXII, Humani generis #21 1950, "This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, Not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.  

    St. John 3.5...
    "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
    It can t get any clearer then that ......

    Offline Stubborn

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #187 on: January 14, 2014, 04:58:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: bowler
    Ambrose, Lover of Truth, and SJB (see *) really have no business in this discussion with Andysloan, since they believe in the Heroin BOD, the belief that that anyone in any false religion can be saved even if they do not explicitly desire to be Catholics, or baptized, nor believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity.

    Andysloan "said" that he rejects the Heroin BOD teachings believed by Ambrose, Lover of Truth  and SJB. (though I doubt that he rejects it, for once one smokes the relatively harmless drug of BOD of the catechumen, they always end up as Heroin BODers)

    Concerning Andysloan, his defenses are 99% his own scriptural interpretations. If I did that in defense of my postion I'd be laughed out of CI.

    * I have Ambrose, Lover of Truth, and SJB on my HIDE list, so I don't see what they are posting, only there names when they post.



    This is an honer and I am not being facetious.  Ambrose and SJB are very good company.  


    Good thing because you all deserve each other.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ambrose

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #188 on: January 14, 2014, 05:19:53 PM »
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  • St. Alphonsus says it is de fide, because it is de fide.  I have read it myself, right where he says it  s, and it is taught by Trent.  To refuse to believe it is heresy.  St. Alphonsus is witnessing to a fact, and it is a fact that the Council of Trent taught Baptism of Desire.

    Many others theologians  and Holy Office all know that Trent taught Baptism of Desire.  No one, not any theologian, not even any Catholic, ever, until the SBC came along dared to say that Trent taught against Baptism of Desire.  

    Everyone except this sect knows the truth, but with all heresies, those infected wear the blinders and will not see the mountains of evidence against them.  

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline SJB

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #189 on: January 14, 2014, 06:38:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    St. Alphonsus says it is de fide, because it is de fide.  I have read it myself, right where he says it  s, and it is taught by Trent.  To refuse to believe it is heresy.  St. Alphonsus is witnessing to a fact, and it is a fact that the Council of Trent taught Baptism of Desire.

    Many others theologians  and Holy Office all know that Trent taught Baptism of Desire.  No one, not any theologian, not even any Catholic, ever, until the SBC came along dared to say that Trent taught against Baptism of Desire.  

    Everyone except this sect knows the truth, but with all heresies, those infected wear the blinders and will not see the mountains of evidence against them.


    Here is St. Alphonsus, Doctor of the Universal Church:  

    Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de pres_bytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #190 on: January 14, 2014, 07:29:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Ambrose
    St. Alphonsus says it is de fide, because it is de fide.  I have read it myself, right where he says it  s, and it is taught by Trent.  To refuse to believe it is heresy.  St. Alphonsus is witnessing to a fact, and it is a fact that the Council of Trent taught Baptism of Desire.

    Many others theologians  and Holy Office all know that Trent taught Baptism of Desire.  No one, not any theologian, not even any Catholic, ever, until the SBC came along dared to say that Trent taught against Baptism of Desire.  

    Everyone except this sect knows the truth, but with all heresies, those infected wear the blinders and will not see the mountains of evidence against them.


    Here is St. Alphonsus, Doctor of the Universal Church:  

    Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de pres_bytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”



    do you or the other bod'ers agree with the following, a simple yes or no

    St. Alphonsus: “See also the special love which God has shown you in
    bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic
    or true Church.  How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews,
    among the Mohometans and heretics, and [b]all[/b] are lost.”


    Offline SJB

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #191 on: January 14, 2014, 07:33:23 PM »
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  • Catechism of the. Council of Trent, McHugh and Callan, 1923

    Baptism Of Infants Should Not Be Delayed

    The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.


    Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once

    On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

    Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.

    Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the Sacrament.


    Mgr. J. H. Hervé, Manuale Theologiae Dogmaticae (Vol. III: chap. IV) - 1931

    II. On those for whom Baptism of water can be supplied:

    "The various baptisms: from the Council of Trent itself and from the things stated, it stands firm that Baptism is necessary, yet in fact or in desire; therefore in an extraordinary case it can be supplied. Further, according to the Catholic doctrine, there are two things by which the sacrament of Baptism can be supplied, namely an act of perfect charity with the desire of Baptism and the death as martyr. Since these two are a compensation for Baptism of water, they themselves are called Baptism, too, in order that they may be comprehended with it under one as it were generic name; so the act of love with desire for Baptism is called Baptismus flaminis (Baptism of the Spirit) and the martyrium (Baptism of Blood)."

    Pope Pius XII, Address to Italian Midwives

    If what We have said up to now deals with the protection and the care of natural life, it should hold all the more in regard to the supernatural life which the newly born infant receives with Baptism. In the present economy there is no other way of communicating this life to the child who has not yet the use of reason. But, nevertheless, the state of grace at the moment of death is absolutely necessary for salvation. Without it, it is not possible to attain supernatural happiness, the beatific vision of God. An act of love can suffice for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace and supply for the absence of Baptism; for the unborn child or for the newly born, this way is not open.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #192 on: January 14, 2014, 07:37:31 PM »
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  • gooch, are you claiming St. Alphonsus contradicted himself? Or could he just be much more competent (a Doctor of the Church) than a guy on the internet calling himself "gooch?"
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #193 on: January 14, 2014, 07:40:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    gooch, are you claiming St. Alphonsus contradicted himself? Or could he just be much more competent (a Doctor of the Church) than a guy on the internet calling himself "gooch?"


    ok so you don't know how to answer a yes or no, let see if the other 2 are capable

    Offline Cantarella

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    The Council of Florence and Baptism of Desire.
    « Reply #194 on: January 14, 2014, 08:27:14 PM »
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  • St Alphonsus is not infallible. Fallible people in the Church can make theological mistakes and lead us astray.

    St Alphonsus says: “Baptism by fire, however, is the perfect conversion to God through contrition, or the love of God above all things, with the explicit desire, or implicit desire, for the true river of baptism.  As the Council of Trent says (Sess. 14, Chap. 4), it takes the place of the latter with regard to the remission of the guilt, but does not imprint a character nor take away all the debt of punishment.  It is called fire because it is made under the impulse of the Holy Spirit, who is given this name… Thus it is of faith (de fide) that men are saved even by the baptism of fire, according to c. Apostolicam, de pres. non bapt. and the Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 4, where it is said that no one can be saved without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

    The passage which St. Alphonsus brings from the Council of Trent, does not teach baptism of desire, but affirms the words of Our Lord in John 3:5. In the mentioned passage, the Church is referring to Justification, not Salvation. It is simply teaching what cannot be lacking for  justification at this point, not what is sufficient for its attainment.  The Church is teaching here that Justification cannot be effected without the desire for Baptism. It is not telling us at this point what will effect Justification (let alone Salvation), but rather stating a necessity (of desire) for Justification to occur.

    Ambrose, if were to believe everything that fallible theologians teach, where can we obtain the truth when these same theologians disagree or contradict each other?  

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.