Author Topic: Baptism of blood for infants. (Read 14725 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #50 on:** March 19, 2010, 05:49:58 AM »

So, I wonder then, is it a condemned proposition that even today there can be people who are in a state of grace yet not admitted to the beatific vision?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #51 on:** March 19, 2010, 06:14:15 AM »

Quote from: Vladimir

http://www.saintsworks.net/books/St.%20Alphonsus%20Maria%20de%20Liguori%20-%20Complete%20Works%20-%209%20-%20Victories%20of%20the%20Martyrs.pdf

Look on page 291.

I didn't forget about you, Vladimir. I have a slower internet connection and it took a while to download this book.

Well, the only thing we have is a note from the "ED" (which I'm assuming is the editor of the English translation) to the effect that St. Genesius did not receive Baptism because the Sacrament was confected in a play (therefore lacking the requisite intention). That's his opinion only. That doesn't come even from St. Alphonsus. I believe that the Sacrament he received was valid because the one who conferred it was intending to DO what the Church DOES. That's why atheists can validly baptized. They could in their minds think, "This is useless and doesn't do anything, and this ritual accomplishes nothing.", but they would still validly confect the Sacrament because they intend to DO what the Church DOES. St. Genesius received the grace of being properly disposed BEFORE the Baptism was conferred upon him. Nor does the narrative rule out that Genesius would have been baptized sometime after he was denounced but before he was martyred.

Caminus · « **Reply #52 on:** March 19, 2010, 06:39:38 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Here are some other additional questions about BoB.

Let's say that I'm a Catholic in a state of unrepented mortal sin. I'm walking down the street and some Muslim, for instance, shoots me in the back of the head for being Catholic. But I have no idea what hit me. Am I saved?

Let's say I'm that Catholic and I have a certain attrition (but not contrition) for my sin and an implicit intention to get to Confession at some point. Am I saved then if I'm shot in the head as per above?

Or is it the presumed perfect charity involved in a more typical martyrdom that supplies the remission of sins? St. Augustine specifically called out the "suffering" aspect of BoB as the element which justifies. But what if my martyrdom--as in the example above--entails no suffering and no will to lay down my life for Christ?

So then how can that work for those who have not yet reached the age of reason?

1. I would say no.
2. Not sure.
3. I would recommend studying II-II, Q. 124, A. 1-5, in order to understand the basic principles involved.

I do know that in most cases, the parity between adults and infants fails because of differing states. It seems that the will of the infant is inchoate but open to receiving such grace passively and without any obstacle whereas in cases of adults, the will must consent because the power is fully developed.

Vladimir · « **Reply #53 on:** March 21, 2010, 09:06:14 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Here are some other additional questions about BoB.

Let's say that I'm a Catholic in a state of unrepented mortal sin. I'm walking down the street and some Muslim, for instance, shoots me in the back of the head for being Catholic. But I have no idea what hit me. Am I saved?

Let's say I'm that Catholic and I have a certain attrition (but not contrition) for my sin and an implicit intention to get to Confession at some point. Am I saved then if I'm shot in the head as per above?

Or is it the presumed perfect charity involved in a more typical martyrdom that supplies the remission of sins? St. Augustine specifically called out the "suffering" aspect of BoB as the element which justifies. But what if my martyrdom--as in the example above--entails no suffering and no will to lay down my life for Christ?

So then how can that work for those who have not yet reached the age of reason?

1. In accordance with Catholic teaching, that soul would be damned I think.

2. I still don't think so. To many people don't realize what a great (infinite) offense mortal sin is to God. You obviously don't have a mind if after you commit a mortal sin, you are walking casually around town with the attitude "I'll get to Confession at some point". People like this aren't penitents but mockers of God. As soon as you commit a mortal sin, you should pray to God to spare your life and grant you the grace to have a perfect or imperfect contrition and allow you to live until your next Confession. Instead, some people will try to seek comfort, like David, in creatures instead, but will find none. In the end, they make lukewarm confessions and fall again.

Ladislaus,
You have a valid point that it is the comment of the editor, and not Saint Alphonsus writing that. However, I think that the Saint mentions others being "baptized in their blood". However, I'll leave it to you to research that if you want to dig deeper, since you already downloaded the book. Its a great read!