Author Topic: THE CASE AGAINST FATHER FEENEY (Read 11817 times)

SJB · « **Reply #60 on:** October 05, 2009, 06:12:27 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

SJB are you a boy or a girl.

I think it was much funnier when I did this. You and Jehanne didn't even get it.

CM · « **Reply #61 on:** October 05, 2009, 07:39:41 PM »

I was being serious. I don't know the answer. I don't know anything at all about you, really, other than that you are a sede and BoD heretic.

SJB · « **Reply #62 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:37:52 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

I was being serious. I don't know the answer. I don't know anything at all about you, really, other than that you are a sede and BoD heretic.

Why do you need to know any more?

The J in SJB stands for John...not Jehanne...but John.

CM · « **Reply #63 on:** October 05, 2009, 11:27:56 PM »

I don't John. Nice to meet you. I hope you convert.

SJB · « **Reply #64 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:55:38 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

I don't John. Nice to meet you. I hope you convert.

Convert to what? Your non-Catholic rule of Faith?

This is all about the Catholic rule of Faith. You have chosen a different rule...because of the crisis, no doubt. But you are still wrong.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #65 on:** October 06, 2009, 07:49:50 PM »

Some think men (which is good) can think themselves outside the Church (which is bad). This is the result of not having a Pope for 51 years. Hopefully those who reject the doctrine of BOB/D will be saved by the BOD they do not believe in due to what is hopefully their sincere beliefs.

To disagree with the moral unity of all the saints, Fathers, Doctors, Popes, theologians and the council who spoke to the isssue is off the charts ludicrous and putting yourself on pretty high ground.

You have gone too far. Reign it back in before it is too late.

BTW - Catholic Martyr - I had made a comment that our Lady is indeed co-redemtrix, not of her own power but because Christ willed it so and gave her the opportunity to help redeem us in a secondary and subordinate way by offering her sufferings during the crucifixion with Christ for our salvation.

Do you also deny that she is the mediatrix of all graces, i.e. that she sends us the graces that Christ won for us. She is not the first cause of those graces but she does mediate them to us. Not because Christ could not do it Himself but because he willed a pure human being to play a role, the same holds true for the co-redemtrix. Not as an equal but in a secondary and supportive way. This humiliates the devil further that a human being, a woman playes such an integral role in his defeat.

We are all co-redeemers in fact if Saint Paul is correct that he makes up for the suffering that is lacking in the sufferings of Christ. Not because what Christ did was not enough but because he wants us to play a role in our and each others salvation through interceding prayer among other things. We can offer our sufferings for the sake of other people's souls. This is co-redemption but not misunderstood as you misunderstand the teaching of BOB/D, i.e. that our acts are necessary apart from Christ, the source and cause of all grace for our salvation.

Benedict 15 did not claim that at all. He merely claims that our Lady, after Christ, played a primary role in our redemption but submitting to His will more perfectly than anyone else.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #66 on:** October 06, 2009, 08:55:52 PM »

Another saddo feenyite is making an embarrassing case against Fr. Feeney over at AQ on the Shroud of Turin thread.

Dang, it's almost unbelievable.

CM · « **Reply #67 on:** October 06, 2009, 09:46:06 PM »

Benedict XV's words are objectively heretical. He says that "she together with Christ redeemed the human race".

Mary's role is NOT co-redemption. There is ONE mediator of redemption, Jesus Christ, our SOLE Redeemer, and only he can be said to have redeemed.

Christ redeemed us by His sufferings, the Most Holy Virgin' suffering was meritorious glory as well as of grace, whereby those redeemed may be assisted in attaining salvation, but she did not redeem anyone.

It is INTERCESSION of which you speak. The Blessed Virgin Mary does what you say she does, because she is our Mediatrix of intercession and our Co-Redemptrix by participation in the redemption, playing a subordinate and COMPLETELY DIFFERENT role, such as that of providing flesh for the Redeemer.

Catholics are all mediators of INTERCESSION. Christ's merit, whereby he paid infinitely more than the necessary price to redeem humankind once and for all, gave us power to merit the benefits of this redemption both for ourselves and for others; this is not co-redemption but intercession. He already paid the price. We intercede with God in order to receive some of this infinite value for ourselves, and we are given the liberty to give it up for others. But we cannot be said to have paid the price for anyone's redemption, only to be meagerly working off a debt that God is merciful enough to call even, despite that we could never pat it back in full. I believe this is what you mean, but you are using the wrong terminology.

Do you agree with my explanation?

If not, please explain clearly.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #68 on:** October 06, 2009, 09:49:57 PM »

Pope Benedict's words are not objectively heretical, unless you want to condemn every Saint and Pope listed in this article as a heretic also...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Redemptrix

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #69 on:** October 06, 2009, 09:54:07 PM »

Catholic Martyr,

You are indeed a clear and logical thinker which is why I admire you. But logic does not always get it right.

When it rains the driveway gets wet.

The driveway is wet so it must have rained.

No, I just finished washing my car.

Co comes from the Latin word "cuм" which means "with" not "equal too".

God creates man but he certainly uses our help. Not because He could not create man without our help but because He chooses to "need" our help. Our we not "co-creaters" when offspring results through procreation?

Our Lady, indeed, helped our Lord redeem the world as she suffered together "with" our Lord as He was redeeming the world.

It was through a man and a women that the world fell and it is through the New Adam and the New Eve that it was redeemed. Christ chose to use Mary's suffering during to crucifixion to be a part of the redemption of mankind. She redeemed the world with Christ in a secondary and subordinate role, not as the primary or first cause but she assisted none-the-less and in a unique and singular way.

CM · « **Reply #70 on:** October 07, 2009, 12:05:07 AM »

Quote from: LoT

When it rains the driveway gets wet.

The driveway is wet so it must have rained.

Did you look at the road and the other driveways before coming to that conclusion?

Quote from: stevusmagnus

Pope Benedict's words are not objectively heretical, unless you want to condemn every Saint and Pope listed in this article as a heretic also...

Stevus, really you need to pay much better attention to the issues. You didn't even read the article you posted, did you? How many Saints does it list?

POPE Leo XIII calls her Co-Redemptrix, which does not contradict the decree of Trent, which states that Jesus Christ ALONE is our redeemer (as I have relayed in my blog).

POPE Pius X states that she merits for us de congruo (merit gratuitously given) what Christ HAD ALREADY merited de condigno (merit owed in strict justice for the work done). This is exactly what I say.

The remaining 'popes' I don't even care what they said, because as you know I have written them off as antipopes, WITHOUT PREJUDICE TO BoD. Even if I believed in the BoD heresy, I would still reject Benedict XV as a heretic.

LoT, the prefix "co" also means "subordinate". The Blessed Virgin was subordinate to Christ in his work of redemption, and played a completely different role.

Quote from: LoT

She redeemed the world with Christ

I'm afraid that your explanation is heretical and contrary to the following decree:

Quote from: Pope Pius IV, at the Council of Trent, Session 25, On Invocation, Veneration and Relics of Saints, and on Sacred Images, infallibly

...Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is our Redeemer...

To say that Mary is our redeemer in any way is heretical, even if it is with and subordinated to Christ. It is not heretical to say that she merits (de congruo) grace and salvation for us, nor is it heretical to say that she was co-Redemptrix, provided we do not believe this means she performed the same task, but that she was subordinate to God in His task, while playing an altogether different role.

She was a co-worker with a different job.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #71 on:** October 07, 2009, 01:20:21 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Stevus, really you need to pay much better attention to the issues. You didn't even read the article you posted, did you? How many Saints does it list?

Ever heard of Saint Iraneus or Saint Pius X? And I'm the one who didn't read the article?

I've just linked to a website that demonstrates Saints and Popes have believed the same "heresy" you accuse the current Pope of. They are all saying the same thing.

CM · « **Reply #72 on:** October 07, 2009, 02:45:37 PM »

I never said I read the article. I did a keyword search for Saints, and found none. But I see that St. Irenaeus is mentioned (saint was not before his name".

I'd like to study his writings on the matter before I comment further.

CM · « **Reply #73 on:** October 07, 2009, 02:52:25 PM »

Hardly surprising that I cannot find any writings confirming that St. Irenaeus ever said any such things.

If you know of something please direct me to it, otherwise, I don't buy it for a moment.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #74 on:** October 07, 2009, 05:37:13 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Quote from: LoT
When it rains the driveway gets wet.

The driveway is wet so it must have rained.

Did you look at the road and the other driveways before coming to that conclusion?

Quote from: stevusmagnus
Pope Benedict's words are not objectively heretical, unless you want to condemn every Saint and Pope listed in this article as a heretic also...

Stevus, really you need to pay much better attention to the issues. You didn't even read the article you posted, did you? How many Saints does it list?

POPE Leo XIII calls her Co-Redemptrix, which does not contradict the decree of Trent, which states that Jesus Christ ALONE is our redeemer (as I have relayed in my blog).

POPE Pius X states that she merits for us de congruo (merit gratuitously given) what Christ HAD ALREADY merited de condigno (merit owed in strict justice for the work done). This is exactly what I say.

The remaining 'popes' I don't even care what they said, because as you know I have written them off as antipopes, WITHOUT PREJUDICE TO BoD. Even if I believed in the BoD heresy, I would still reject Benedict XV as a heretic.

LoT, the prefix "co" also means "subordinate". The Blessed Virgin was subordinate to Christ in his work of redemption, and played a completely different role.

Quote from: LoT
She redeemed the world with Christ

I'm afraid that your explanation is heretical and contrary to the following decree:

Quote from: Pope Pius IV, at the Council of Trent, Session 25, On Invocation, Veneration and Relics of Saints, and on Sacred Images, infallibly
...Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is our Redeemer...

To say that Mary is our redeemer in any way is heretical, even if it is with and subordinated to Christ. It is not heretical to say that she merits (de congruo) grace and salvation for us, nor is it heretical to say that she was co-Redemptrix, provided we do not believe this means she performed the same task, but that she was subordinate to God in His task, while playing an altogether different role.

She was a co-worker with a different job.

So you admit she is a co-redemtrix. Isn't that all Benedict XV said. She didn't perform the same task as if she did it instead of Him. She did it with him in a secondary and subordinate way and would not have been able to help Him in this task if He did not Will or allow her to do so. He certainly did not need her help but willed to need her help. I am not sure we really disagree here but I am also highly doubtful that Benedict XV disagreed either.