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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 21505 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #210 on: February 10, 2021, 11:53:44 AM »
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  • Ladislaus, I asked you a question earlier in the thread. Can you please answer it: "Do you deny what the Church says that Holy Scripture teaches or do you affirm it?"

    Here are the sources I cited:

    Catechism of Pope St. Pius X: "Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized: 17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

    Baltimore Catechism, Approved by His Holiness Pope Leo XIII: Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
    A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

    See the sources: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286
    And: http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm

    As for Cornelius, St. Augustine says: "For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled with the Holy Spirit; Acts 10:44 Simon, even after baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14084.htm

    St. Thomas says: "So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues." See: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4069.htm

    I already cited Fr. Haydock where Church-approved sources have clearly taught these for centuries. You reject all these many sources.

    I don't care what Rahner says. I care what real scholars like St. Robert Bellarmine say. St. Robert says the Baptism of Desire was not absolutely certain at first, but now is, having been settled by the Church. After Trent, he says it most certainly is to be believed.

    Baptism of Blood was plainly taught by numerous Fathers. Baptism of Desire was disputed till the Middle Ages. You need to show some sources that it can still be licitly disputed today by Catholics. I contest that. The Popes and the Church have settled the question.

    Please cite some of those manuals you claim referred to BOD as a disputed question after Trent. Until then, all Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus in teaching that Trent teaches that souls can be justified and saved by Baptism of Desire. Benedictus Deus forbids Catholics from issuing their own private unauthorized interpretations of the decrees of Trent, whereas St. Alphonsus' was authorized.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #211 on: February 10, 2021, 12:33:58 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, I asked you a question earlier in the thread. Can you please answer it: "Do you deny what the Church says that Holy Scripture teaches or do you affirm it?"

    Here are the sources I cited:

    Catechism of Pope St. Pius X: "Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized: 17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

    Baltimore Catechism, Approved by His Holiness Pope Leo XIII: Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
    A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

    See the sources: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286
    And: http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm

    As for Cornelius, St. Augustine says: "For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled with the Holy Spirit; Acts 10:44 Simon, even after baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14084.htm

    St. Thomas says: "So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues." See: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4069.htm

    I already cited Fr. Haydock where Church-approved sources have clearly taught these for centuries. You reject all these many sources.

    I don't care what Rahner says. I care what real scholars like St. Robert Bellarmine say. St. Robert says the Baptism of Desire was not absolutely certain at first, but now is, having been settled by the Church. After Trent, he says it most certainly is to be believed.

    Baptism of Blood was plainly taught by numerous Fathers. Baptism of Desire was disputed till the Middle Ages. You need to show some sources that it can still be licitly disputed today by Catholics. I contest that. The Popes and the Church have settled the question.

    Please cite some of those manuals you claim referred to BOD as a disputed question after Trent. Until then, all Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus in teaching that Trent teaches that souls can be justified and saved by Baptism of Desire. Benedictus Deus forbids Catholics from issuing their own private unauthorized interpretations of the decrees of Trent, whereas St. Alphonsus' was authorized.
    You have an explanation to give.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #212 on: February 10, 2021, 12:52:17 PM »
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  • Indeed, I'm not sure why they repeatedly need to "prove" that St. Thomas, for instance, believed in BoD.  We clearly grant this.  So why do they insist on re-spamming the same quotes over and over again?
    As LT said, it seems obvious the reason is that "they know nothing about the subject except that they can't accept that a "nice" non-Catholic will go to hell".

    It can only be for the above same reason that they constantly raise the authority of fallible saints and catechisms, over the infallible teaching of the Church. Seems they think that by constantly referencing the lesser authority as if they are the greatest authority, that they are able to get by and avoid the whole issue of their own personal belief, while striving to get others to do the same.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #213 on: February 10, 2021, 03:06:10 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, I asked you a question earlier in the thread. Can you please answer it: "Do you deny what the Church says that Holy Scripture teaches or do you affirm it?"

    Of course I deny it.  I've denied it many times.  What's your authority, the Baltimore catechism?

    Now, answer my question.  Do you hold that there's a dogmatic consensus of the Church Fathers in favor of BoD?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #214 on: February 10, 2021, 03:32:07 PM »
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  • Now, answer my question.  Do you hold that there's a dogmatic consensus of the Church Fathers in favor of BoD?
    Readers will notice that Ladislaus answers all questions quickly and in short responses (as do all people that are not hiding something).

    Good luck getting a direct answer from the "nice non-Catholics will saved" types. Getting a straight answer from them occupies having to bear with their never ending new threads and months, reams, of the same quotes over and over, till they finally just leave, only to come back a few months later and repeat the process.  They never answer the truth, that they just believe that nice non-Catholics will be saved, somehow.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #215 on: February 10, 2021, 04:07:37 PM »
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  • As for Cornelius, St. Augustine says: "For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled with the Holy Spirit; Acts 10:44 Simon, even after baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14084.htm

    St. Augustine rejected Baptism of Desire before he died.  And the activity of the Holy Spirit in Cornelius does not prove any kind of justification, much less does it prove that he would have been saved had he died before receiving the water of Baptism.  As Trent teaches, it is the Holy Spirit who bestows all the actual graces leading up to justification in Baptism.  So the presence of the Holy Spirit isn't probative of justification or sanctifying grace.

    Offline jerm

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #216 on: February 10, 2021, 04:58:10 PM »
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  • I don't see what's wrong with BoD as long as you admit that everyone who is saved has to have a water baptism. 

    A good catechumen or someone who's invincibly ignorant/has implicit desire will come to the faith before they die, period. Therefore, they will also receive a proper water baptism before they die- Trent makes this very clear- or will truly repent in their last moments if they already have that baptism. Only evil people will go to Hell. God provides every sufficient means for our salvation, but that doesn't mean we see all of the means given. An angel could, 100%, provide baptism for a good-willed person who is about to die having not gotten their baptism. Certainly this falls under theological opinion, though, as Baptism of Desire should. If a kind, hopeful, faithful catechumen dies before their scheduled baptism or a Hindu is dying yet would likely accept Christ wholeheartedly given the chance, then we don't know if he was saved, because an angel could have come and baptized them. God alone has that power. If they were truly sincere, then they were truly baptized with water and enlightened in the faith, and thus they were saved at death. It would be a mystery we couldn't understand fully, but certainly one that's possible. 

    If you make the distinction that the desire alone isn't what saves, but also the water baptism obtained by that desire, then BoD isn't wrong anymore. Moreover, anyone who refrains from converting someone who's genuinely interested in Catholicism out of a feeling that they would go to Hell would certainly be wrong. But to call people Feeneyites for saying you need water baptism to be saved is just silly. 

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #217 on: February 10, 2021, 05:10:29 PM »
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  • ...  answers all questions quickly and in short responses (as do all people that are not hiding something).

    You seem to be suggesting that taking more than a sentence or two to explain something indicates that explanation is wrong.

    Why do you think that?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #218 on: February 10, 2021, 05:11:18 PM »
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  • I don't see what's wrong with BoD as long as you admit that everyone who is saved has to have a water baptism.

    A good catechumen or someone who's invincibly ignorant/has implicit desire will come to the faith before they die, period. Therefore, they will also receive a proper water baptism before they die- Trent makes this very clear- or will truly repent in their last moments if they already have that baptism. Only evil people will go to Hell. God provides every sufficient means for our salvation, but that doesn't mean we see all of the means given. An angel could, 100%, provide baptism for a good-willed person who is about to die having not gotten their baptism. Certainly this falls under theological opinion, though, as Baptism of Desire should. If a kind, hopeful, faithful catechumen dies before their scheduled baptism or a Hindu is dying yet would likely accept Christ wholeheartedly given the chance, then we don't know if he was saved, because an angel could have come and baptized them. God alone has that power. If they were truly sincere, then they were truly baptized with water and enlightened in the faith, and thus they were saved at death. It would be a mystery we couldn't understand fully, but certainly one that's possible.

    If you make the distinction that the desire alone isn't what saves, but also the water baptism obtained by that desire, then BoD isn't wrong anymore. Moreover, anyone who refrains from converting someone who's genuinely interested in Catholicism out of a feeling that they would go to Hell would certainly be wrong. But to call people Feeneyites for saying you need water baptism to be saved is just silly.

    This actually brings out a very important distinction.  Even if people believe in a hypothetical Baptism of Desire, do we have any proof whatsoever that anyone has ever been saved without water Baptism and that God didn't miraculously provide water Baptism to all those who are claimed to have been saved by BoD?  St. Thomas teaches that God would, if necessary, bring an angel to preach the faith to someone of good will.  This same angel could also confer Baptism.  I mean, if he's already there to enlighten that soul about the faith, why not just also take the next logical step and confer Baptism?  Or come along to confer it on someone who already had the faith?

    Now, there's an interesting point about Baptism of Blood.  St. Cyprian taught that no one could be saved without the SACRAMENT of Baptism.  But then he stated his belief in BoB.  Was this a contradiction?  No.  Elsewhere he taught that in BoB, blood took the place of water for the matter of the Sacrament, while angels pronounced the words (of the form).  In other words, he merely saw BoB as an extraordinary manner of conferring the SACRAMENT of Baptism, and he saw BoB as no "exception to the rule" as it were.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #219 on: February 10, 2021, 05:21:50 PM »
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  • God can provide the Sacrament wherever and whenever He chooses.

    Right, this is basic "God is omnipotent" 101 and "with God all things are possible."  Since God CAN do either one with equal ease, why do you suppose that God would will that some of His elect NOT receive the Sacrament?  Why would He withhold it from them?  Didn't Our Lord teach that if you seek/ask/desire for something, that you would receive it?  So if this desire were strong enough to be hypothetically efficacious for justification, then why would it not be strong enough to be efficacious for receiving the Sacrament, as per Our Lord's promise?

    This is a positive step to acknowledge that God cannot be constrained by "impossibility" ... as most BoDers imply.

    So God revealed that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary by a necessity of means for salvation, and could easily provide it to anyone, but then decides to withhold it and then save someone without it when He could just as easily grant it?  This just doesn't compute.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #220 on: February 10, 2021, 05:35:34 PM »
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  • You seem to be suggesting that taking more than a sentence or two to explain something indicates that explanation is wrong.
    I am saying that if the question is simple, the answer is simple and short. It takes months and having to tolerate reams of runarounds to get the "non-Catholics can be saved" believers to admit their true belief. Example - Simple question, are you an believer in salvation by implicit faith in a God that rewards, the belief that Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jҽωs etc, can be saved without conversion? It is rare to have an implicit faith'er simply answer yes.

    The more a person knows about a subject the more succinct he can state it. "I would have written a shorter letter, if I have had more time"(Mark Twain)


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #221 on: February 10, 2021, 05:56:39 PM »
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  • BoD is also implied Pelagianism, which St. Augustine realized after battling the Pelagians.

    Is the desire itself salvific?  Is it meritorious unto salvation?  No; to say so would be Pelagian heresy.  God gives salvation freely.  So what exactly is the role of this desire vis-a-vis the reception of the Sacrament?  In point of fact, it's nothing but a SIGN that the soul appears to be cooperating with the will of God.  Presumably God will give the Sacrament if the soul perseveres in this cooperation.  This implication that it would be unjust of God not to save someone who had the desire for Baptism, it implies that this desire is meritorious or efficacious in and of itself unto salvation.  That's Pelagianism pure and simple.  To imply that it would be unjust, or unmerciful, for God to withhold salvation from someone who appears to be so cooperating is to pretend that one can see into the internal forum.  "Look at that devout catechumen, who wanted so much to be baptized, and yet was cut down before receiving the Sacrament." [how do you know the internal forum state of that person?] vs. "that scoundrel lived a sinful life but was baptized on his deathbed."  This is the "thinking" (aka emoting) that led to people beginning to theorize about BoD during the time of St. Augustine, and he rejected this reasoning as leading to a "vortex of confusion" ... which is most certainly is because it's extrapolating from a presumed knowledge of the internal forum to theological speculation.

    "What if there were such a devout soul, ...."  Well, what if?  We don't know that there EVER has been one whom God did not bring to the Sacrament.

    BoD is a vortex of nonsense and confusion, which has never brought any good fruits, only bad ones.  Our Lord taught that we would know things by their fruits, and the fruits of BoD theory are absolutely pernicious.  There's no need for it, no proof that anyone was ever saved by it, leads very easily into the heresies of 1) Pelagianism, 2) denying the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation, 3) invisible Church ecclesiology, and 4) effective denial of EENS.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #222 on: February 10, 2021, 06:06:54 PM »
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  • No, the saint may be simply mistaken but most probably the chronicler has something wrong or your will blocks your intellect and you can't see alternatives to your own narrative.

    As an example during the funeral oration, St Ambrose assured the grieving crowd that Valentinian received what he asked for. This does allow for a BOD but can’t prove it because another possibility exists and is more likely. St Ambrose was privy to the circuмstances of Valentinian’s murder, knew the emperor was actually baptized before it happened but because it was a state secret, St Ambrose could not reveal he knew because he would then be forced to reveal the identity of the murderers and a cινιℓ ωαr could ensue. Also remarkable is that the faithful were mourning Valentinian because they thought he was not baptized and therefore lost. They would not believe this way if St Ambrose had previously taught them BOD.

    Another example is the Venerable Bede and his relaying of the story of St. Albanus and his companion. As St. Albanus ascended the hill he stopped to pray and a spring of water was miraculously produced. Here Bede claims the purpose of the spring was refreshment but we see there is means (water and a minister), motive (St. Albanus is a Christian who knows baptism is a necessity for salvation), and opportunity (the soldiers allowed a stoppage in the process of execution). Means, motive, and opportunity is proof enough beyond a reasonable doubt for any prosecution. The same goes for the 40 martyrs on the frozen lake. The means (there is another person available to minister to the soldier and they are on a lake), motive (they are Christians who believe in the necessity of baptism), and opportunity (freezing to death takes time) are all supplied by Providence which is why St. Augustine says “Perish the thought that a person predestined to eternal life could be allowed to end this life without the sacrament of the mєdιαtor”. In sum, these stories are sometimes misunderstood by us or by their own authors, in which case proponents of BOB detract from the author’s reputation by continuing their error.

    I hope this helps.
     

    Well, the oration cold also be ambiguous in this sense, offering a consolation that everyone receives what he asks for, which simply implies that if Valentinian didn't receive Baptism, it was because he didn't ask for it (with the proper dispositions).  Another answer is the Baptism of Blood answer.  And you're right, i forgot this most obvious interpretation.  Back then news didn't travel quickly ... before the days of the internet or even radio or newspapers.  I'm sure the details surrounding his murder were fuzzy.  Could it possibly have happened that one of his attendants conferred emergency Baptism on him as he lay dying?  That detail would likely have come after the general news of his death.

    This absolutely cannot be cited as any proof of BoD, and someone just posted the quotes from elsewhere in St. Ambrose where he appears to reject BoD.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #223 on: February 10, 2021, 06:16:41 PM »
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  • No, it's quite clear that there was no unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers with regard to Baptism of Desire.  More of them rejected it than supported it, and most didn't mention it at all.

    So zero proof here that BoD has been revealed God.

    St. Gregory nαzιanzen (aka Gregory the Theologian):  REJECTED
    St. Gregory of Nyssa:  REJECTED
    St. Fulgentius:  REJECTED
    St. Ambrose:  ambiguous at best one time and in some places REJECTED
    St. Augustine:  tentatively theorized at first, then later REJECTED

    Some Fathers who believed in BoB implicitly reject BoD in stating that absolutely the only way outside the normal Sacrament to be saved is martyrdom.

    So we have the ambiguous statement of St. Ambrose (while elsewhere rejecting it) and the early immature theorizing of St. Augustine ("after having considered it over and over again, I find that ...") [note, not I teach this with the authority of the Apostles, but I FIND] which he later rejected, issuing the strongest anti-BoD statements on record anywhere.  THAT is your "dogmatic consensus" of the Fathers.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #224 on: February 10, 2021, 06:20:27 PM »
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  • I don't care what Rahner says. I care what real scholars like St. Robert Bellarmine say.

    :laugh1:.  St. Robert agrees with Rahner that the early Fathers had no consensus on BoD.  All Rahner is saying is that by and large the Fathers rejected BoD.  It's not a question of whether you "care".  If he's wrong, then cite the Fathers who promoted BoD so as to refute his contention.

    Ironically, Archbishop Lefebvre is a Rahnerian when it comes to soteriology.  Rahner proposed αnσnymσus Christianity.  He was actually attacked for this by the more rabid Modernist heretics, because Rahner continued to hold that those who were saved were saved BY MEANS of Jesus Christ even if they didn't know it.  Well, shucks, that's EXACTLY the teaching of Archbishop Lefebvre.  So maybe you SHOULD care about Rahner's soteriology.