Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 21432 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2312
  • Reputation: +867/-144
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #195 on: February 09, 2021, 02:27:58 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Apologies if this topic has already been broached earlier in the thread, since I know you guys discussed double predestination, but in a quick glance I didn't find an answer to this in particular:

    How does the death of an unbaptised infant not equate to double predestination? I saw it mentioned that the damnation of invincibly ignorant adults isn't double predestination because, through adhering to the natural law and corresponding to God's graces, they may be given a chance to convert. But an infant doesn't get that opportunity. I know they aren't sent to the Hell of the damned, but wouldn't such a child still have been predestined to not go to Heaven? I know Heaven is a reward and not a right, but it's still Biblical and Church teaching that God wills all men to be saved. So why would He bring into being a soul who had no opportunity to be? Even if an unbaptised infant is not damned, per se, they certainly aren't saved, nor had they any chance to be.
    Forlorn,

    You raise a good question. The topic is very deep, but it has implications that run even deeper, and involve, e.g., predestination and ɛƖɛctıon - both Catholic doctrines that have largely been preempted, and often subtly (or not so subtly) perverted in the way of heretics, by non-Catholic Christians.

    There are some good thread on another forum regarding this:

    God's Permission Of Sin: Negative Or Conditioned Decree? (forumotion.com)
    1 Timothy 2:4 (forumotion.com)


    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46013
    • Reputation: +27095/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #196 on: February 09, 2021, 02:29:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I still think Stubborn's mentality is super problematic though.  It basically amounts to "All these saints were just dumb and didn't read Trent."

    Its like Sola Scriptura with magisterial docuмents

    Well, you'd be surprised how little time theologians actually spent on BoD.  Very few even mention it, and those who do typically mention it in passing, simply repeating the notion that it exists.  Things get perpetuated through repetition unless someone takes the time to "dig into" an issue and look at the source material.  Very few theologians cared that much about this question to do original research, simply taking this conclusion for granted due to lack of time or interest to look into it.  So, no, they weren't "dumb".  They just didn't care that much about it by and large and didn't spent a lot of their time on it.  Father Cekada did a survey of all the theologians' opinions on BoD and he could only find about 20 (if I recall) in total, and the vast majority of it simply mentioned it in passing in a single sentence.

    In fact, from the about the 5th century, when St. Fulgentius explicitly rejected BoD, until St. Bernard, there isn't a single mention of it anywhere in extant Catholic writing.  It resurfaced with the proto-scholastics, Abelard and Hugh of St. Victor, who were debating separate sides of the issue.  Peter Lombard then wrote St. Bernard, asking for his opinion on the subject, and the latter TENTATIVELY went pro-BoD with the argument, "I'd rather be wrong with Augustine" than right on his own (a posture of humility).  He was evidently not aware that St. Augustine had forcefully retracted the opinion.  Had he known, he would have had to decide whether to be right with early Augustine or right with later Augustine.  Peter Lombard than put that opinion into the Sentences, which became the first scholastic theological treatise.  From there St. Thomas picked it up, and from him it spread ... due to his authority.


    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2486
    • Reputation: +990/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #197 on: February 09, 2021, 04:11:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's key that they are not sent to Hell.  Human beings not only have no right in justice to the Beatific Vision, but we even lack the natural capacity to enjoy it.  It's a free gift of God.  So there's no natural deprivation in Limbo, the same thing that accounts for their natural happiness.  I believe that this is an act of God's Mercy and that all infants who die without Baptism were likely headed to Hell, and it was an act of God's Mercy to give them eternal natural happiness instead.

    I still don't see how one can say that God wishes for the salvation of all, as in 1 Timothy 2:4, if He creates souls who are predestined to not be saved. Those past the age of reason are granted or denied salvation by acts of their own free will, so we can easily say that God wished for their salvation, but that the damned amongst them rejected the offer. We can't say that for unbaptised infants. They are not saved because of circuмstances outside of their control. So we can't say that God wishes for their salvation but that they reject it. They don't get a chance to reject it at all.

    It's all the more troubling when you think about miscarriage statistics. Something like 10-20% of all pregnancies are said to end in miscarriage, even in modern times, and actually this figure is too low because it generally only counts those which happen after a woman discovers she's pregnant. There are believed to be a great number of miscarriages that occur in the very early stages of pregnancy so, although I lack exact figures here, the number of souls who were never even born(and therefore could not have been baptised) could well rival those who were. That's not even getting into abortions or the historically gargantuan rates of infant mortality. All in all, there have probably been more souls who never reached the age of reason than those who did. That's not a small edge case; that's a rather large proportion of "all men" who never had a chance to attain salvation. How then can we say God wishes salvation for them all?

    The argument about it being merciful I can't refute, but it doesn't really make sense to me. I see three main issues with it:
    (1) Why does God not just automatically "sort" all souls the way he does for these infants? This is the weakest point, but I still feel it worth pointing out since it goes contrary to God's normal modus operandi.

    (2) It would imply that declines in infant mortality rates, especially in heathen countries, correspond to a decrease in God's mercy. If infant mortality rates in a Muslim country drop from 30% to 5%, as they have in the last 150 years or so, the number of them being spared near certain damnation would go down 6x. 30% of the population being spared damnation to just 5%. Are we to believe God became less merciful?

    (3) While the idea that their early death is merciful to them solves the issue of injustice when you compare them to people who lived and went on to be saved, it just switches the problem to be about the injustice to those who went on to be damned. Why does God spare some souls who he knows will go on to deserve damnation, but not others?

    Forlorn,

    You raise a good question. The topic is very deep, but it has implications that run even deeper, and involve, e.g., predestination and ɛƖɛctıon - both Catholic doctrines that have largely been preempted, and often subtly (or not so subtly) perverted in the way of heretics, by non-Catholic Christians.

    There are some good thread on another forum regarding this:

    God's Permission Of Sin: Negative Or Conditioned Decree? (forumotion.com)
    1 Timothy 2:4 (forumotion.com)


    DR
    I'm reading through that second thread at the moment(started with that one, dunno why) and it's a very interesting read. Thank you. I'll get back to you when I've finished it.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46013
    • Reputation: +27095/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #198 on: February 09, 2021, 05:37:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I still don't see how one can say that God wishes for the salvation of all, as in 1 Timothy 2:4, if He creates souls who are predestined to not be saved.

    God willed their salvation, but He foresaw that they would not be saved, and therefore in His Mercy took them from this life into a state of eternal natural happiness.  They were indeed "saved," ... saved from Hell.

    God's will for all to be saved is not efficacious for all to be saved.  God sometimes withholds graces from those He foresees will reject them and waste them, in His Mercy, since it would only increase their punishment.

    Offline JoeZ

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 350
    • Reputation: +226/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #199 on: February 09, 2021, 06:57:19 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • I still think Stubborn's mentality is super problematic though.  It basically amounts to "All these saints were just dumb and didn't read Trent."

    Its like Sola Scriptura with magisterial docuмents
    No, the saint may be simply mistaken but most probably the chronicler has something wrong or your will blocks your intellect and you can't see alternatives to your own narrative. 

    As an example during the funeral oration, St Ambrose assured the grieving crowd that Valentinian received what he asked for. This does allow for a BOD but can’t prove it because another possibility exists and is more likely. St Ambrose was privy to the circuмstances of Valentinian’s murder, knew the emperor was actually baptized before it happened but because it was a state secret, St Ambrose could not reveal he knew because he would then be forced to reveal the identity of the murderers and a cινιℓ ωαr could ensue. Also remarkable is that the faithful were mourning Valentinian because they thought he was not baptized and therefore lost. They would not believe this way if St Ambrose had previously taught them BOD.

    Another example is the Venerable Bede and his relaying of the story of St. Albanus and his companion. As St. Albanus ascended the hill he stopped to pray and a spring of water was miraculously produced. Here Bede claims the purpose of the spring was refreshment but we see there is means (water and a minister), motive (St. Albanus is a Christian who knows baptism is a necessity for salvation), and opportunity (the soldiers allowed a stoppage in the process of execution). Means, motive, and opportunity is proof enough beyond a reasonable doubt for any prosecution. The same goes for the 40 martyrs on the frozen lake. The means (there is another person available to minister to the soldier and they are on a lake), motive (they are Christians who believe in the necessity of baptism), and opportunity (freezing to death takes time) are all supplied by Providence which is why St. Augustine says “Perish the thought that a person predestined to eternal life could be allowed to end this life without the sacrament of the mediator”. In sum, these stories are sometimes misunderstood by us or by their own authors, in which case proponents of BOB detract from the author’s reputation by continuing their error.

    I hope this helps.
     
    Pray the Holy Rosary.


    Offline JoeZ

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 350
    • Reputation: +226/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #200 on: February 09, 2021, 07:08:20 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  •  Cornelius was justified by Baptism of Desire. .
    Concerning the baptism of Cornelius. Acts 10&11

    Cornelius is as far removed from the Church as any non-Christian will ever be. He was separated geographically by a dangerous multiple day journey, he had no knowledge of the Catholic church or anyone who could lead him to the truth, and worse of all, St. Peter probably would not converse with him much less enter his home or initiate him into the church as St. Peter (and consequently the Church following Peter’s direction) would consider that “casting pearls before swine.” Cornelius was a religious man who had a fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of faith; he practiced natural virtue and was given grace from God including the gift of tongues as an external manifestation to Peter of God’s grace in Cornelius. Cornelius cooperated with the prevenient grace of God and moved his will to do what was necessary for his salvation. Miracles ensued which led to his evangelization and baptism. The obvious lesson from this story, believed by the early church, is that the Church is universal, but also learned here is that physical circuмstances cannot impede Divine Providence or interdict the necessity of the sacrament of baptism.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11946
    • Reputation: +7507/-2250
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #201 on: February 09, 2021, 07:48:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You know, as this topic never dies, and as it seems that the same people debate it, it's crazy that nothing ever gets resolved.  I really wish we could setup a thread for an individual person (i.e. a pro-BOD person) and let him debate/converse/ask questions of all the "Feeneyites" on this site.  If there was a way to do that, then truth might be gotten to and time saved.  As it is, you have 5 conversations going on at once and no one is forced/reminded to stay on topic.  It's total chaos and it just repeats ever 90 days or so.
    .
    If anyone wants to debate/converse one-on-one, send me a PM.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46013
    • Reputation: +27095/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #202 on: February 09, 2021, 08:01:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also, where exactly does it say that Cornelius was justified before his Baptism?


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46013
    • Reputation: +27095/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #203 on: February 09, 2021, 08:03:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You know, as this topic never dies, and as it seems that the same people debate it, it's crazy that nothing ever gets resolved.  I really wish we could setup a thread for an individual person (i.e. a pro-BOD person) and let him debate/converse/ask questions of all the "Feeneyites" on this site.  If there was a way to do that, then truth might be gotten to and time saved.  As it is, you have 5 conversations going on at once and no one is forced/reminded to stay on topic.  It's total chaos and it just repeats ever 90 days or so.
    .
    If anyone wants to debate/converse one-on-one, send me a PM.

    I've suggested something similar before, that BoD should be broken down into smaller sub-topics and people need to stay on topic:

    e.g., did the Church Fathers believe in BoD

    Of course, the same thing happens with R&R vs. Sede debates.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14632
    • Reputation: +6021/-901
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #204 on: February 09, 2021, 08:15:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You know, as this topic never dies, and as it seems that the same people debate it, it's crazy that nothing ever gets resolved.  I really wish we could setup a thread for an individual person (i.e. a pro-BOD person) and let him debate/converse/ask questions of all the "Feeneyites" on this site.  If there was a way to do that, then truth might be gotten to and time saved.  As it is, you have 5 conversations going on at once and no one is forced/reminded to stay on topic.  It's total chaos and it just repeats ever 90 days or so.
    .
    If anyone wants to debate/converse one-on-one, send me a PM.
    A major problem is that the BODers do not answer questions, rather, they completely ignore direct challenges as they continue to quote the same saints and catechisms. If they did meet the challenges, answer questions and were honest, they could not remain BODers.

    That is the key here I think Pax, they will only believe what they want to believe no matter what, why else do they ignore questions and run from any challenge? It is because they refuse to believe what they do not want to believe.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46013
    • Reputation: +27095/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #205 on: February 10, 2021, 06:34:30 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • ... they continue to quote the same saints and catechisms.

    Indeed, I'm not sure why they repeatedly need to "prove" that St. Thomas, for instance, believed in BoD.  We clearly grant this.  So why do they insist on re-spamming the same quotes over and over again?

    So, for instance, I pointed out that there was NO unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers on this issue, as MORE Fathers explicitly rejected BoD than who accepted it.

    So Xavier chimes in, "St. Ambrose taught [BoD]".  I disputed that, and my argument was simply ignored.  Nevertheless, OK, even if I were to GRANT that St. Ambrose taught it, we still only have 1.5 Fathers who believed in it, with about 5 or 6 who explicitly rejected it, and the rest are silent.

    Please either explain, based on that, how there's a dogmatic consensus of the Fathers in favor of this issue, or have the honesty -- as Rahner did -- to GRANT or CONCEDE that there's no dogmatic consensus of the Fathers on this issue.  Instead we get the LIE repeated that the Church Fathers taught BoD (as a group).

    But that honesty of Rahner is not to be found among most proponents of BoD and, as you pointed out, Stubborn, that's typically prima facie evidence that they have already made up their minds for emotional reasons and are not willing to look at the issue objectively.


    Offline LeDeg

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 777
    • Reputation: +534/-134
    • Gender: Male
    • I am responsible only to God and history.
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #206 on: February 10, 2021, 10:26:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Because of St Ambrose's ambiguity in this infamous quote, it forces us to look elsewhere in his writings for clarification.

    St. Ambrose, De mysteriis, 390-391 A.D.:
    “You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood, and the spirit; and if you withdraw any one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism is not valid.  For what is water without the cross of Christ?  A common element without any sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5]  Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace.”

    St. Ambrose, The Duties of Clergy, 391 A.D.:
    “The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood.  Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed he must circuмcise himself from his sins so that he can be saved;...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the Sacrament of Baptism.”

    St. Ambrose, The Duties of Clergy, 391 A.D.:
    Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’  No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.”

    Unless one wants to make out one of the great doctors of the Church as some sort of schizophrenic, he cannot be pointed to as supporter of BOD.

    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #207 on: February 10, 2021, 10:36:49 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Indeed, I'm not sure why they repeatedly need to "prove" that St. Thomas, for instance, believed in BoD.  We clearly grant this.  So why do they insist on re-spamming the same quotes over and over again?
    They all do the same thing because they know nothing about the subject except that they can't accept that a "nice" non-Catholic will go to hell. (That does not apply to the rare case of the strict BODer who believes that a catechumen can be saved. However, that type never starts a thread on CI to argue about such a harmless belief).

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #208 on: February 10, 2021, 11:40:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • I'm reading through that second thread at the moment(started with that one, dunno why) and it's a very interesting read. Thank you. I'll get back to you when I've finished it.
    Actually, that's the proper order. I should have told you anyway to read the second thread first. You got it right. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #209 on: February 10, 2021, 11:44:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also, where exactly does it say that Cornelius was justified before his Baptism?
     If you mean by "it" Scripture, a strong Scriptural argument could be made. But that is neither here nor there on a Trad Catholic forum where the Magisterium guides, or rather, governs.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.