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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 32445 times)

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #300 on: February 15, 2021, 11:08:10 AM »
Rereading Fr. Laisney's excellent article, it makes brilliant points, and is worth citing here, especially this part: 

"In other words, salvation, which is at the end of the Christian life on earth, only requires perseverance in the state of grace received at justification, which is at the beginning of the Christian life on earth. Baptism is the sacrament of justification, the sacrament of the beginning of the Christian life. If one has received sanctifying grace, which is the reality of the sacrament - res sacramenti - of baptism, he only needs to persevere in that grace to be saved. Perseverance in grace requires obedience to the Commandments of God, including the commandment to receive the sacrament of baptism. Thus there remains for him the obligation to receive baptism of water. But, this is no longer absolutely necessary (by necessity of means), since he has already received by grace the ultimate fruit of that means. It still remains necessary in virtue of our Lord’s precept to be baptized by water. When and if circuмstances independent of our will prevent us from fulfilling such a precept, the principle taught by St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and others is to be applied: "God takes the will as the fact."[9] This means that God accepts the intention to receive the sacrament of baptism as equivalent to the actual reception of the sacrament.

It is false to pretend that Canon 4 of Session VII (TCT 668) of the Council of Trent (quoted above) on the "Sacraments in General" deals with justification as opposed to salvation. Desire is explicitly mentioned in this canon, for when it uses the expression "aut eorum voto," it admits that the grace of justification can be obtained by desire of the sacraments. It is also false to say that Canon 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism from Session VII of the Council of Trent deals with salvation as opposed to justification. Indeed Canon 4 (of Session VII) deals explicitly with the necessity of sacraments "for salvation." In that context, the expression "grace of justification" appears manifestly as being precisely the only essential requisite for salvation, as is taught explicitly in Session VI, Chapter 16. That which is said of the sacraments in general applies to each sacrament in particular, without having to be repeated each time. Simplistic reasoning which disregards the explicit teaching of the Church on baptism of desire only arrives at false conclusions.

That it is not necessary to repeat the clause "re aut voto" is so much the more true since baptism of desire is an exception, a special case, not the normal one. One need not mention exceptions each time one speaks of a law. For instance, there are many definitions of the Church on original sin that do not mention the Immaculate Conception. This does not invalidate the Immaculate Conception! For instance Pope St. Zosimus wrote: "nullus omnino  —absolutely nobody" (Dz 109a) was exempt of the guilt of original sin. Such a "definition" must be understood as the Church understands it, that is, in this particular case, not including the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the same way, it is sufficient that baptism of desire be explicitly taught by the Church, by the Council of Trent, in some place, but it is not necessary to expect it on every page of her teaching. Silence on an exception is not a negation of it. This principle is important to remember so as not to be deceived by a frequent technique of the Feeneyites. They accuмulate quotes on the general necessity of baptism as if these quotes were against baptism of desire. The very persons they quote hold explicitly the common teaching on baptism of desire! These quotes affirming the general necessity of baptism do not refer exclusively to baptism by water, nor do they exclude baptism of blood and/or of desire. They are to be understood "in the same sense and in the same words" as the Catholic Church has always understood them, which means to include baptism of blood and/or of desire along with that of water." ...

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #301 on: February 15, 2021, 11:24:31 AM »
I will come back to Archbishop +Lefebvre and Bishop +Fellay in a minute. Answer my question to you about Cornelius first, Last Trad.

St. Peter in Acts declared both that Our Lord Jesus is the Only Name by which we are saved, and that the Cornelius received BOD.

St. Augustine and St. Thomas both teach that Cornelius was justified by Baptism of Desire. Trent says those who die justified are saved.

I already said I don't consider St. Benedict's Centre's position to be heretical, but an acceptable Catholic position. Dimonds' is heretical.

Here is Fr. Haydock, Acts 10: "Can any man forbid water? &c. or doubt that these, on whom the Holy Ghost hath descended, may be made members of the Christian Church, by baptism, as Christ ordained? (Witham) --- Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. (St. Augustine, sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4.)"

I do not keep up with the opinions on every minute detail about BOD from groups like SBC, the Dimond's, or any other "groups" and persons.  People's opinions are not so important to me. What is important is to pinpoint the big picture of what they believe. All I want to know is what you believe. I asked you a simple question and you answered it. Now I gave you examples of what you said that you reject (salvation by implicit faith) and all I need to know is just if you reject them too.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #302 on: February 15, 2021, 12:28:48 PM »
Xavier is an example of the "vortex of confusion" that St Augustine warned about.  Try to have a conversation strictly on Trent, St Augustine, St Thomas, and St Alphonsus and Xavier proceeds to muddy the waters by then quoting a non-council, non-saint, non-doctor...Fr Laisney.  :facepalm:  
.
If a person can't stay on topic, it's a sign of a confused mind.

Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #303 on: February 15, 2021, 01:33:27 PM »
Rereading Fr. Laisney's excellent article, it makes brilliant points, and is worth citing here, especially this part:

"In other words, salvation, which is at the end of the Christian life on earth, only requires perseverance in the state of grace received at justification, which is at the beginning of the Christian life on earth. Baptism is the sacrament of justification, the sacrament of the beginning of the Christian life. If one has received sanctifying grace, which is the reality of the sacrament - res sacramenti - of baptism, he only needs to persevere in that grace to be saved. Perseverance in grace requires obedience to the Commandments of God, including the commandment to receive the sacrament of baptism. Thus there remains for him the obligation to receive baptism of water. But, this is no longer absolutely necessary (by necessity of means), since he has already received by grace the ultimate fruit of that means. It still remains necessary in virtue of our Lord’s precept to be baptized by water. When and if circuмstances independent of our will prevent us from fulfilling such a precept, the principle taught by St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and others is to be applied: "God takes the will as the fact."[9] This means that God accepts the intention to receive the sacrament of baptism as equivalent to the actual reception of the sacrament.

It is false to pretend that Canon 4 of Session VII (TCT 668) of the Council of Trent (quoted above) on the "Sacraments in General" deals with justification as opposed to salvation. Desire is explicitly mentioned in this canon, for when it uses the expression "aut eorum voto," it admits that the grace of justification can be obtained by desire of the sacraments. It is also false to say that Canon 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism from Session VII of the Council of Trent deals with salvation as opposed to justification. Indeed Canon 4 (of Session VII) deals explicitly with the necessity of sacraments "for salvation." In that context, the expression "grace of justification" appears manifestly as being precisely the only essential requisite for salvation, as is taught explicitly in Session VI, Chapter 16. That which is said of the sacraments in general applies to each sacrament in particular, without having to be repeated each time. Simplistic reasoning which disregards the explicit teaching of the Church on baptism of desire only arrives at false conclusions.

That it is not necessary to repeat the clause "re aut voto" is so much the more true since baptism of desire is an exception, a special case, not the normal one. One need not mention exceptions each time one speaks of a law. For instance, there are many definitions of the Church on original sin that do not mention the Immaculate Conception. This does not invalidate the Immaculate Conception! For instance Pope St. Zosimus wrote: "nullus omnino  —absolutely nobody" (Dz 109a) was exempt of the guilt of original sin. Such a "definition" must be understood as the Church understands it, that is, in this particular case, not including the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the same way, it is sufficient that baptism of desire be explicitly taught by the Church, by the Council of Trent, in some place, but it is not necessary to expect it on every page of her teaching. Silence on an exception is not a negation of it. This principle is important to remember so as not to be deceived by a frequent technique of the Feeneyites. They accuмulate quotes on the general necessity of baptism as if these quotes were against baptism of desire. The very persons they quote hold explicitly the common teaching on baptism of desire! These quotes affirming the general necessity of baptism do not refer exclusively to baptism by water, nor do they exclude baptism of blood and/or of desire. They are to be understood "in the same sense and in the same words" as the Catholic Church has always understood them, which means to include baptism of blood and/or of desire along with that of water." ...

If any more context was needed as to what the Council of Trent was talking about and meant when using “aut eius voto,” the passage, as the council prepared it, reads:

"quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur, sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus etc"

That is, "this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof...".

See under "Loca Aptata in Decreto De Justificatione Juxta Censuras ex Supracriptis Approbatas a deputatis” (Passages Prepared for the Decree of Justification According to the Judgments from the Aforementioned Esteemed Deputies), p.245-246 of Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini, Tomus I: www.google.com/books/edition/Acta_genuina_Ss_oecuмenici_Concilii_Trid/LQ9jAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #304 on: February 15, 2021, 01:59:57 PM »
If any more context was needed as to what the Council of Trent was talking about and meant when using “aut eius voto,” the passage, as the council prepared it, reads:

"quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur, sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus etc"

That is, "this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof...".

See under "Loca Aptata in Decreto De Justificatione Juxta Censuras ex Supracriptis Approbatas a deputatis” (Passages Prepared for the Decree of Justification According to the Judgments from the Aforementioned Esteemed Deputies), p.245-246 of Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini, Tomus I: www.google.com/books/edition/Acta_genuina_Ss_oecuмenici_Concilii_Trid/LQ9jAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1
Well that's a fresh one, I've never seen that translation before.

So it's:

"this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof...".

Versus

"this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof...".