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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 29408 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #300 on: February 15, 2021, 11:08:10 AM »
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  • Rereading Fr. Laisney's excellent article, it makes brilliant points, and is worth citing here, especially this part: 

    "In other words, salvation, which is at the end of the Christian life on earth, only requires perseverance in the state of grace received at justification, which is at the beginning of the Christian life on earth. Baptism is the sacrament of justification, the sacrament of the beginning of the Christian life. If one has received sanctifying grace, which is the reality of the sacrament - res sacramenti - of baptism, he only needs to persevere in that grace to be saved. Perseverance in grace requires obedience to the Commandments of God, including the commandment to receive the sacrament of baptism. Thus there remains for him the obligation to receive baptism of water. But, this is no longer absolutely necessary (by necessity of means), since he has already received by grace the ultimate fruit of that means. It still remains necessary in virtue of our Lord’s precept to be baptized by water. When and if circuмstances independent of our will prevent us from fulfilling such a precept, the principle taught by St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and others is to be applied: "God takes the will as the fact."[9] This means that God accepts the intention to receive the sacrament of baptism as equivalent to the actual reception of the sacrament.

    It is false to pretend that Canon 4 of Session VII (TCT 668) of the Council of Trent (quoted above) on the "Sacraments in General" deals with justification as opposed to salvation. Desire is explicitly mentioned in this canon, for when it uses the expression "aut eorum voto," it admits that the grace of justification can be obtained by desire of the sacraments. It is also false to say that Canon 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism from Session VII of the Council of Trent deals with salvation as opposed to justification. Indeed Canon 4 (of Session VII) deals explicitly with the necessity of sacraments "for salvation." In that context, the expression "grace of justification" appears manifestly as being precisely the only essential requisite for salvation, as is taught explicitly in Session VI, Chapter 16. That which is said of the sacraments in general applies to each sacrament in particular, without having to be repeated each time. Simplistic reasoning which disregards the explicit teaching of the Church on baptism of desire only arrives at false conclusions.

    That it is not necessary to repeat the clause "re aut voto" is so much the more true since baptism of desire is an exception, a special case, not the normal one. One need not mention exceptions each time one speaks of a law. For instance, there are many definitions of the Church on original sin that do not mention the Immaculate Conception. This does not invalidate the Immaculate Conception! For instance Pope St. Zosimus wrote: "nullus omnino  —absolutely nobody" (Dz 109a) was exempt of the guilt of original sin. Such a "definition" must be understood as the Church understands it, that is, in this particular case, not including the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the same way, it is sufficient that baptism of desire be explicitly taught by the Church, by the Council of Trent, in some place, but it is not necessary to expect it on every page of her teaching. Silence on an exception is not a negation of it. This principle is important to remember so as not to be deceived by a frequent technique of the Feeneyites. They accuмulate quotes on the general necessity of baptism as if these quotes were against baptism of desire. The very persons they quote hold explicitly the common teaching on baptism of desire! These quotes affirming the general necessity of baptism do not refer exclusively to baptism by water, nor do they exclude baptism of blood and/or of desire. They are to be understood "in the same sense and in the same words" as the Catholic Church has always understood them, which means to include baptism of blood and/or of desire along with that of water." ...

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #301 on: February 15, 2021, 11:24:31 AM »
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  • I will come back to Archbishop +Lefebvre and Bishop +Fellay in a minute. Answer my question to you about Cornelius first, Last Trad.

    St. Peter in Acts declared both that Our Lord Jesus is the Only Name by which we are saved, and that the Cornelius received BOD.

    St. Augustine and St. Thomas both teach that Cornelius was justified by Baptism of Desire. Trent says those who die justified are saved.

    I already said I don't consider St. Benedict's Centre's position to be heretical, but an acceptable Catholic position. Dimonds' is heretical.

    Here is Fr. Haydock, Acts 10: "Can any man forbid water? &c. or doubt that these, on whom the Holy Ghost hath descended, may be made members of the Christian Church, by baptism, as Christ ordained? (Witham) --- Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. (St. Augustine, sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4.)"

    I do not keep up with the opinions on every minute detail about BOD from groups like SBC, the Dimond's, or any other "groups" and persons.  People's opinions are not so important to me. What is important is to pinpoint the big picture of what they believe. All I want to know is what you believe. I asked you a simple question and you answered it. Now I gave you examples of what you said that you reject (salvation by implicit faith) and all I need to know is just if you reject them too.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #302 on: February 15, 2021, 12:28:48 PM »
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  • Xavier is an example of the "vortex of confusion" that St Augustine warned about.  Try to have a conversation strictly on Trent, St Augustine, St Thomas, and St Alphonsus and Xavier proceeds to muddy the waters by then quoting a non-council, non-saint, non-doctor...Fr Laisney.  :facepalm:  
    .
    If a person can't stay on topic, it's a sign of a confused mind.

    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #303 on: February 15, 2021, 01:33:27 PM »
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  • Rereading Fr. Laisney's excellent article, it makes brilliant points, and is worth citing here, especially this part:

    "In other words, salvation, which is at the end of the Christian life on earth, only requires perseverance in the state of grace received at justification, which is at the beginning of the Christian life on earth. Baptism is the sacrament of justification, the sacrament of the beginning of the Christian life. If one has received sanctifying grace, which is the reality of the sacrament - res sacramenti - of baptism, he only needs to persevere in that grace to be saved. Perseverance in grace requires obedience to the Commandments of God, including the commandment to receive the sacrament of baptism. Thus there remains for him the obligation to receive baptism of water. But, this is no longer absolutely necessary (by necessity of means), since he has already received by grace the ultimate fruit of that means. It still remains necessary in virtue of our Lord’s precept to be baptized by water. When and if circuмstances independent of our will prevent us from fulfilling such a precept, the principle taught by St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and others is to be applied: "God takes the will as the fact."[9] This means that God accepts the intention to receive the sacrament of baptism as equivalent to the actual reception of the sacrament.

    It is false to pretend that Canon 4 of Session VII (TCT 668) of the Council of Trent (quoted above) on the "Sacraments in General" deals with justification as opposed to salvation. Desire is explicitly mentioned in this canon, for when it uses the expression "aut eorum voto," it admits that the grace of justification can be obtained by desire of the sacraments. It is also false to say that Canon 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism from Session VII of the Council of Trent deals with salvation as opposed to justification. Indeed Canon 4 (of Session VII) deals explicitly with the necessity of sacraments "for salvation." In that context, the expression "grace of justification" appears manifestly as being precisely the only essential requisite for salvation, as is taught explicitly in Session VI, Chapter 16. That which is said of the sacraments in general applies to each sacrament in particular, without having to be repeated each time. Simplistic reasoning which disregards the explicit teaching of the Church on baptism of desire only arrives at false conclusions.

    That it is not necessary to repeat the clause "re aut voto" is so much the more true since baptism of desire is an exception, a special case, not the normal one. One need not mention exceptions each time one speaks of a law. For instance, there are many definitions of the Church on original sin that do not mention the Immaculate Conception. This does not invalidate the Immaculate Conception! For instance Pope St. Zosimus wrote: "nullus omnino  —absolutely nobody" (Dz 109a) was exempt of the guilt of original sin. Such a "definition" must be understood as the Church understands it, that is, in this particular case, not including the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the same way, it is sufficient that baptism of desire be explicitly taught by the Church, by the Council of Trent, in some place, but it is not necessary to expect it on every page of her teaching. Silence on an exception is not a negation of it. This principle is important to remember so as not to be deceived by a frequent technique of the Feeneyites. They accuмulate quotes on the general necessity of baptism as if these quotes were against baptism of desire. The very persons they quote hold explicitly the common teaching on baptism of desire! These quotes affirming the general necessity of baptism do not refer exclusively to baptism by water, nor do they exclude baptism of blood and/or of desire. They are to be understood "in the same sense and in the same words" as the Catholic Church has always understood them, which means to include baptism of blood and/or of desire along with that of water." ...

    If any more context was needed as to what the Council of Trent was talking about and meant when using “aut eius voto,” the passage, as the council prepared it, reads:

    "quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur, sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus etc"

    That is, "this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof...".

    See under "Loca Aptata in Decreto De Justificatione Juxta Censuras ex Supracriptis Approbatas a deputatis” (Passages Prepared for the Decree of Justification According to the Judgments from the Aforementioned Esteemed Deputies), p.245-246 of Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini, Tomus I: www.google.com/books/edition/Acta_genuina_Ss_oecuмenici_Concilii_Trid/LQ9jAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #304 on: February 15, 2021, 01:59:57 PM »
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  • If any more context was needed as to what the Council of Trent was talking about and meant when using “aut eius voto,” the passage, as the council prepared it, reads:

    "quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur, sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus etc"

    That is, "this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof...".

    See under "Loca Aptata in Decreto De Justificatione Juxta Censuras ex Supracriptis Approbatas a deputatis” (Passages Prepared for the Decree of Justification According to the Judgments from the Aforementioned Esteemed Deputies), p.245-246 of Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini, Tomus I: www.google.com/books/edition/Acta_genuina_Ss_oecuмenici_Concilii_Trid/LQ9jAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1
    Well that's a fresh one, I've never seen that translation before.

    So it's:

    "this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof...".

    Versus

    "this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof...".
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #305 on: February 15, 2021, 02:34:35 PM »
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  • The first is the passage in the preparatory draft, and the second is the passage in the final draft.  The Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini in the link above contains the preparatory and final drafts.

    Latin
    Preparatory:  "...quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur..."
    Final:   "...Quae quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto fieri non potest...""


    English
    Preparatory:  "...this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
    Final:  "...This translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #306 on: February 15, 2021, 03:03:51 PM »
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  • The first is the passage in the preparatory draft, and the second is the passage in the final draft.  The Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini in the link above contains the preparatory and final drafts.

    Latin
    Preparatory:  "...quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur..."
    Final:   "...Quae quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto fieri non potest...""


    English
    Preparatory:  "...this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
    Final:  "...This translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
    While this does help add context to what they may have meant, it's important to remember that preparatory drafts aren't infallible. It could just be that the sentence was reworded but they still meant what they had written in the draft, or perhaps they changed it explicitly to change the meaning, or even that Providence ensured that they rendered it differently. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #307 on: February 15, 2021, 03:06:46 PM »
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  • The first is the passage in the preparatory draft, and the second is the passage in the final draft.  The Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini in the link above contains the preparatory and final drafts.

    Latin
    Preparatory:  "...quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur..."
    Final:   "...Quae quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto fieri non potest...""


    English
    Preparatory:  "...this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
    Final:  "...This translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
    So the first draft said justification is effected by the sacrament or the desire thereof, whereas the final draft, which is the dogma itself, says justification cannot be effected without the sacrament......or the desire thereof.

    This only means justification cannot be obtained without the sacrament, nor can justification be obtained without the desire for the sacrament. I've been trying to tell you that the whole time.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #308 on: February 15, 2021, 04:01:48 PM »
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  • Doesn't Trent, Session VI, Chapter IV include infants among those for whom regeneration via baptism is necessary? The prior Session talked about original sin and specifically mentioned infants and their need for being reborn in Christ as well as adults. And indeed within Session VI there is discussion of the condemnation in Adam being passed on to men by merely being born. 

    How then can the "or the desire of" refer to a necessary disposition for baptism which must be conjoined with the water of the sacrament when some of those of whom it is speaking do not require that desire or disposition, and therefore the linkage of desire to the water is not necessary for them?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #309 on: February 17, 2021, 09:52:42 AM »
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  • Xavier answeredYes, I reject it. I confess the Athanasian Creed, in the sense St. Athanasius, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus etc did.

    Last Tradhican asked: ....People's opinions are not so important to me. What is important is to pinpoint the big picture of what they believe. All I want to know is what you believe. I asked you a simple question above and you answered it above.  Then I gave you examples of what you said that you reject (salvation by implicit faith) and all I need to know is just if you reject them too. But I never received a response: 


    Do you reject these examples of salvation by implicit faith, the teaching that non-Catholics can be saved
    by their belief in a god that rewards?:


    From the book  Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre:

    1. Page 216: “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.  There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

    2.Page 217: “One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”

    Pages 217-218: “This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned.  It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church:  ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’  When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell.  Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  This must be preached.”

    Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006: “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)
    ?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #310 on: February 17, 2021, 10:58:52 AM »
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  • The first is the passage in the preparatory draft, and the second is the passage in the final draft.  The Acta Authentica SS. Oecuмenici Concilii Tridentini in the link above contains the preparatory and final drafts.

    Latin
    Preparatory:  "...quae translatio post evangelium promulgatum lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto efficitur..."
    Final:   "...Quae quidem translatio post evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto fieri non potest...""


    English
    Preparatory:  "...this translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, is effected by the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."
    Final:  "...This translation, since the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof..."

    This change in indicative of a specific theological point being made.  For some reason the original formulation was considered unsatisfactory.  Here, the change turns an expression which indicates sufficient cause into one that indicates necessary (but not sufficient) cause.  In a different text, the original stated that perfect contrition alone sufficed to restore a soul to justification, but the Pope directly intervened and ordered that it be added that the will/intention to go to Confession must also be there.  This demonstrates that the "cannot ... without" phraseology was very deliberately and meant to communicate something specific.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #311 on: February 18, 2021, 09:00:54 AM »
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  • Last Tradhican, you did not answer my question either: you said you denied Baptism of Desire, even of the catechumen, the idea of the Dimonds. I showed you five sources, (1) St. Luke, (2) St. Peter, (3) St. Augustine, (4) St. Thomas (5) Fr. Haydock that said plainly that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, Baptism of Desire, before his Water Baptism. How do you explain this? I can also show St. Alphonsus, and St. Robert, beside other Theologians, who teach the same. The plain sense of Scripture itself indicates it, and it is very clear.

    I post only Fr. Haydock again below: "Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament" https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment105.shtml

    Do you deny Acts 10:47? Or do you interpret it contrary to the authorized official interpretation of the Catholic Church?

    To your question, what I agree with is the below declaration by Bp. Athanasius and Cardinal Burke, which the SSPX has endorsed, and which I've promoted many times, including on CI: "“After the institution of the New and Everlasting Covenant in Jesus Christ, no one may be saved by obedience to the law of Moses alone without faith in Christ as true God and the only Savior of humankind” (Rom 3:28; Gal 2:16)." https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/two-cardinals-and-three-bishops-remember-catholic-doctrine-48875

    Dimond-disciples and Fr. Feeney followers have confused the issue by focusing on Baptism of Desire, which all the manuals teach. Those same manuals, including St. Alphonsus' Moral Theology, teach that the REAL QUESTION is "EXPLICIT vs IMPLICIT FAITH". I am with St. Alphonsus, Fr. Mueller, Msgr. Fenton etc in believing explicit faith is a necessary means for salvation in the NT. Even Fr. Laisney in the article I cited earlier said, "We can concede that if a point of doctrine is not yet defined, one may be excused in case of ignorance or may be allowed to discuss some precision within the doctrine. In the case of baptism of desire, for instance, we are allowed to discuss how explicit the Catholic Faith must be in one for baptism of desire. But one is not allowed to simply deny baptism of desire and reject the doctrine itself. Rigorism always tends to destroy the truth."

    Since all Catholics can safely follow St. Alphonsus, per the Popes, they can hold what he taught both on BOD and on Explicit Faith.

    No, Pax Vobis, it's not me who is in the vortex of confusion. You reject the clear declaration of Trent, as explained by a Priest who is competent in Latin and quotes the Council to prove his point. Why do you appeal to Doctors, when you're going to reject them anyway?

    Here is St. Alphonsus, a Doctor like you asked: "Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" Other readers will notice how the Doctor practically equates justification and salvation, knowing well, as Fr. Laisney said, and as Trent had taught, that nothing more is required for salvation after justification than perseverance. St. Benedict's Centre concedes someone who now dies in grace will certainly be saved and the opposite is heretical. Do you agree with St. Alphonsus?

    Yes, it is interesting to see that, Joe Cupertino. Thanks for posting. I would say the first indicates Baptism or its Desire Justifies, whereas the second indicates that Baptism, or its desire, since the promulgation of the Gospel, is the only means of Justification. A subtle difference, but an important one nonetheless. Still, even the original draft would have been prepared by competent and orthodox Catholic Bishops among the Tridentine Fathers.

    Now, let's look at where we are. Trent says: "Without Baptism, or Without its Desire", there is no Justification. It can also be stated as

    Trent: "Baptism, OR ITS DESIRE, is necessary for justification/salvation" [since justification is necessary for salvation].

    Thus, Canon Law summarizes the Tridentine dogma in this way:

    Canon Law: "Baptism, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto all for salvation".

    Dimond: "Baptism, BUT NOT ITS DESIRE, is necessary for both justification and salvation"

    SBC: "Baptism, OR ITS DESIRE, is necessary for justification. Baptism is necessary for salvation".

    St. Robert: "The Council of Trent declared Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire".

    St. Alphonsus: "It is de fide that souls are saved by Baptism of Desire ... in virtue of the Council of Trent ... where it is said no one can be saved "without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it"

    Pope St. Pius X: "Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation ... the absence of Baptism can be supplied by ... Baptism of Desire."

    Pope St. Pius V also implied Baptism of Desire, in two dogmatic infallible condemnations. If you reject them, you may as well hold to Calvinism or Jansenism, like the Jansenist Michael Baius whom Pope St. Pius V infallibly condemned.

    Catholic Encyclopedia: "The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius."

    Pope St. Pius V condemned: "Charity can be in both Catechumens and Penitents without the Remission of sins"
    Therefore, the dogmatic Truth: "Charity in both Catechumens and Penitents obtains the Remission of sins"

    Pope St. Pius V condemned: "That Charity which is the fullness of the law is not always connected with the Remission of sins"
    Therefore, the dogmatic Truth: "That Charity which is the fullness of the law IS always connected with the Remission of sins."

    Charity or Contrition, in which the desire for the Sacrament is implicit, obtains the remission of sins both before and after Baptism.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #312 on: February 18, 2021, 09:30:30 AM »
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  • Peter Dimond makes a powerful argument on the reading of the disputed passage from Trent. But this is not the issue for me.

    The issue, as often, comes down to authority. Has the Church - in catechisms, through approved teachings of its saints, doctors and theologians, in various non-infallible utterances - committed itself to the position that a desire for baptism without the actual receipt of the sacrament can be sufficient to open heaven to a "saint"?
    ....
    The legitimate authority - the hierarchy of the Church - is only recognized as binding when it exercises that authority in a certain way, and yet, even "then," it may not be so - witness Vatican II and the problem of that ecuмenical council's rejected teachings, teaching ratified by a pope. Thus I think even Xavier's (and the SSPX and similar Trads) proper argument comes back to haunt him too - to the extent he rejects ecuмenically approved papal teachings (if he does, as many Trads do); he is danger of being  , and he is in danger of being hoisted by his own petard. His argument points a dagger at what I see as the issue of authority - for you, me, the Feeneyite, and I think himself included.

    Mind you, I say all of this while extremely sympathetic to the Feeneyite (e.g, Peter Dimond's in the video) position, and believing it to be, on its merits, quite persuasive. The problem I have with it is that is seems to support the Protestant position in that it bottoms the ultimate authority on the individual "saint," the believer guided by the Spirit, albeit the Catholic "saint" grants the Church a broader role in that he allows that it can create a greater body of things that bind (namely, extra-Scriptural, infallible, Magisterial statements) - of course only as interpreted by the Catholic "saint."

    Br Peter Dimond isn't rejecting Church authority.  If you follow MHFM's material you will see that they organize their position according to a hierarchy of Church authority.  So that the highest authority is Sacred Scripture, Tradition and ex cathedra pronouncements from the popes as well as universal ordinary magisterium doctrines (dogmas) which are approved by the popes with the bishops by their constant teaching.  But MHFM does not reject the teaching of fathers, doctors and theologians when those doctrines are consistent with the highest authority.  I would say that their approach is the same approach that Catholic theologians have always used with the exception that after Vatican I, the authority of the popes teaching ex cathedra is much more clear and compelling.  We could never use St Augustine or St Thomas to contradict a dogma promulgated by a pope regardless of how much we esteem the teaching of those doctors.  Also, we can't use St Augustine or St Thomas as a lens through which to interpret the dogmas of the popes.  We are bound by the literal meaning of the dogma, not by interpretations of it.  Sometimes the terms of the pronouncement need to be explained to the unlearned but once the terms are known, the dogma itself should be clear.  That's the whole point of defining dogmas in the first place.  Sacred Scripture was authored by God Himself, and He spoke often in parables that need to be explained.  He gave us the pope to explain how we should understand Sacred Scripture (His Word).  Dogma is the pope's explanation.  We don't need to interpret it.  We can't interpret it.  We are bound by the literal meaning.

    Also, accepting the Conciliar hierarchy as the legitimate hierarchy of the Catholic Church is a total fail.  You will never understand the doctrines of the Church as long as you accept the leaders of a heretical, schismatic sect as the true hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #313 on: February 18, 2021, 09:45:53 AM »
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  • I already said I don't consider St. Benedict's Centre's position to be heretical, but an acceptable Catholic position. Dimonds' is heretical.
    In charity, you have to identify the dogma (as well as where that dogma was defined) which you believe has been denied.  There is not even a consensus on the theological note to be given BOD so I think you are falsely overstating your case.  St Alphonsus was never the pope and was never infallible.  His statement that BOD is de fide is wrong.  Ott admits that BOD is NOT de fide.  At best, Trent referred to BOD in Session 6, Ch 4.  But Trent never defined BOD.  So therefore, there has never been a formal definition of BOD and that means BOD is certainly not de fide.  But in fact, there is good reason to believe that Trent was not even referring to BOD in S 6, C 4.  See the MHFM video referenced above.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #314 on: February 18, 2021, 10:18:01 AM »
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  • Trent did not say "WITHOUT BAPTISM AND WITHOUT ITS DESIRE" as the Dimonds absurdly and heretically teach, to their own perdition, and those who follow them.

    That's a mischaracterization of the MHFM position.  The Latin text is, "sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto".  This is correctly translated as "without the laver of regeneration or a desire for it".  The Latin preposition sine takes the ablative case and both lavacro and voto are in the ablative case.  Logically sine acts as a negation of the clause.  In mathematical logic (which reflects the same principles as philosophical logic), it would be NOT (laver OR desire).  But the logical NOT has the commutative property and the statement can be rewritten as NOT laver AND NOT desire.  When you commute the NOT, the logical OR must be converted to logical AND in order to preserve the meaning of the statement.  For a thorough treatment of the entire S.6,C.4 case, see https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholic_church_salvation_faith_and_baptism.php#Sess6chap4

    Vatican I condemned your idea that the Church can misunderstand Her own dogmas for 500 years before folks like the Dimonds come along and correct Her. The Church's traditional understanding of Dogma is Infallible.

    The Church has not misunderstood the dogma at any time.  Theologians have been in error concerning BOD, but theologians are not the Church.  Where Peter is, there is the Church.  And Peter (the popes), have never defined nor taught BOD in a binding manner.  On the other hand, the popes HAVE bound us to believe that there is no salvation outside the Church, that the Sacraments are absolutely necessary for salvation, that the Sacrament of Baptism in particular is absolutely necessary as a necessity of means for salvation, that justification is not possible without the Sacrament of Baptism after the creation of the Church, that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity, the incarnation and the necessity of incorporation into the Church is absolutely necessary for salvation.  All these things have been effectively denied by some theologians at one time or another.  The theologians must give way to the popes.