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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 21788 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2021, 03:11:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Papa Pius V on February 03, 2021, 08:50:00 PM
    St. Amrose, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Augustine are not heretics in any way, shape or form regardless of their personal belief on EENS.

    What makes Feeneyites heretics however is their belief that the Church has definitely and magisterially taught explicit heresy via encyclicals, council, catechism and canon law. Moreover their belief that those who do not hold their interpretation of EENS are heretics and those who do not hold them to be heretics are also heretics makes the Feeneyites both schismatics and heretics.

    You’ve been corrected on this slander against the Feeneyite position twice already.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #16 on: February 04, 2021, 05:12:50 AM »
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    • Quote
    Council of Trent:

    "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

    -And-

    "CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema."

    If you agree with Trent, then you agree Trent's Canons are infallible. Using Trent for your answers, these will be your answers to the following questions:

    Q) Are the sacraments necessary for salvation?
    A) The sacraments are necessary for salvation.

    Q) Can a man obtain justification without the sacraments?  
    A) No, man cannot achieve justification without the sacraments.

    Q) Can a man obtain justification with a desire for the sacraments?  
    A) No, man cannot achieve justification without the desire for the sacraments.

    Q) Where does Trent teach man can obtain salvation with a desire for the sacrament?
    A) Trent does not teach man can obtain salvation with a desire for the sacrament.

    In the above canons, The Church through Trent, teaches a) that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, and b) that justification is not achieved without either the sacrament or the desire for the sacrament.

    All we can do, indeed, what we are in fact bound to do, is repeat Trent and say; the sacraments are necessary for salvation and that without the sacrament or the desire for the sacraments, man does not achieve justification. That's the way Trent left it, that's the way we must leave it.


    If anyone has any explanation as to how the Church's "no justification without desire" was changed into "salvation through desire", I'm all ears.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #17 on: February 04, 2021, 07:19:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Papa Pius V on February 04, 2021, 06:28:23 AM
    You & I and Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen don't get to interpret Trent.
    Pope Pius IV’s Bull Benedictus Deus (26 January 1564). The Bull, which confirms the decrees of the Council of Trent, imposes a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication on anyone who, without the approval of the Holy See, presumes “to publish in any form any commentaries, glosses, annotations, scholia on, or any kind of interpretation whatsoever of the decrees of this council.”
    I am not the one doing the interpreting here.

    Trent clearly condemns with anathema whoever says the sacraments are not necessary for salvation - this is condemned in the quotes from Trent I posted, I did not interpret anything, I am repeating Trent.

    Trent, in the quotes I posted, clearly condemns with anathema whoever says men obtain the grace of justification without the sacrament or without the desire thereof, I did not interpret anything, I am repeating Trent.

    So Trent says without the desire, there is no justification. You say with the desire, there is salvation.

    Again, I am not the one doing the interpreting here, you are - and doing a terrible job of it I might add.

    Can we agree on this? If not, please point out exactly where I am [mis]interpreting Trent.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #18 on: February 04, 2021, 07:55:18 AM »
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    • PiusV,
    Fr Freeney was saying that the MODERNIST version of BOD was heretical, the same version you also agree isn’t catholic (ie Fr Feeney was fighting the pre-V2 Modernists in Boston, MA who were “teaching” that a non-catechumen, who doesn’t desire to enter the Church, can be saved).
    .
    The only thing Fr Feeney ever said about a catechumen who died before baptism is that he “didn’t know” where that soul went. And none of us does.  We only hope. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #19 on: February 04, 2021, 08:16:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 04, 2021, 07:55:18 AM
    PiusV,
    Fr Freeney was saying that the MODERNIST version of BOD was heretical, the same version you also agree isn’t catholic (ie Fr Feeney was fighting the pre-V2 Modernists in Boston, MA who were “teaching” that a non-catechumen, who doesn’t desire to enter the Church, can be saved).
    .
    The only thing Fr Feeney ever said about a catechumen who died before baptism is that he “didn’t know” where that soul went. And none of us does.  We only hope.

    This has been explained to Papa here several times already, but he's of bad will and refuses to listen ... so he continues to slander Father Feeney.  He's attacking the Dimondite position that BoD is heretical, to which I have repeatedly objected.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #20 on: February 04, 2021, 08:55:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Papa Pius V on February 04, 2021, 07:44:20 AM
    You are by logical necessity engaging in interpretation because there is a clear difference of opinion on how to understand these quotes from Trent.
    Please point out where in my posts I even alluded to interpreting Trent other than pointing out that the Feeneyites reject the magisterial authority that interpreted Trent? Pure strawman.
    No, we cannot agree on this because again you and I have no authority.
    No, I quoted Trent word for word. Words have meaning. Trent's words mean what they say or they mean nothing at all.

    Trent says that it is a condemned proposition to say that without the sacraments or without the desire for the sacraments that men obtain the grace of justification. Those are Trent's words, not mine.

    Can men obtain justification without the sacraments? Without the desire for the sacraments? If you answer yes, then per Trent, you are anathema. Plain and simple - nothing complicated, nothing to interpret here.

    If you answer no, you are simply wrong. Trent does not say "with" the desire, Trent says "without" the desire. IOW, Trent purposely offers no definite conclusion or answer in the matter.

    Thank about it and get back with me. 





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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #21 on: February 04, 2021, 09:21:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Papa Pius V on February 04, 2021, 09:02:08 AM
    That's exactly what Protestants say about the Bible. Words have meaning that can be understood by perspicuity. You are a layman as am I. Have some humility of heart to accept what the Church has taught otherwise you are no different than a garden variety protestant.
    Again you are engaging in publishing an interpretation of Trent and thereby are excommunicated ipso facto. I highly recommend you stop for the benefit of your own spiritual well being.
    No, protestants take their mindset to their Bible and they see in the various passages what they already believe, and what they do not believe, they do not see. This is what you are doing with Trent, I am trying to show you what Trent actually says - which according to you, is heresy because to you, it simply cannot mean exactly what it says.

    Do not be confused, ambiguity and parable like communicating did not start until the decrees of the Second Vatican Council, prior to that the Church (at Trent) taught clearly, on purpose and always.  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #22 on: February 04, 2021, 09:54:32 AM »
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    • In your effort to deny infallible, apodictic Church teaching, you are beating the wind.

    Faithful Catholics will always profess, with Trent, that which Trent condemns with anathema, namely, the three things below:
    1) anyone that saith the sacraments are not necessary for salvation.
    2) anyone that saith that without the sacraments men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification
    3) anyone that saith that without the desire for the sacraments, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification.

    Per Trent, is it possible that men may obtain the grace of justification without the desire for the sacrament?

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #23 on: February 04, 2021, 10:15:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Papa Pius V on February 04, 2021, 09:56:47 AM
    In your effort to retain your personal understanding of Trent, you have become no different than your brothers the Jansenists and Old Catholics.
    Again I will not discuss Trent with you. I will only refer you to the Holy Church via the Papal Encyclicals, theologians, Doctors, and saints who have written on this issue post Trent.
    Another BODer bites the dust, cannot even answer a simple question, even when given the infallible answers first. Weasels on the false claim of misinterpretation of clear, infallible teachings. You are the typical BODer. Sad actually.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #24 on: February 04, 2021, 10:37:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Papa Pius V on February 04, 2021, 10:19:31 AM
    Another Feeneyite leaves Catholicism to make his own sect via his understanding.
    All hail His Holiness Pope Stubborn I.

    It's ironic that you call yourself "Papa" because it is YOU who are adopting the schismatic attitude by declaring those who don't believe in Baptism of Desire to be heretics.  We'd have several Church Fathers in that category of those who rejected Baptism of Desire.  

    So you did a nice weasel shift from
    1) declaring those who consider BoD heretical to be schismatics/heretics 
            TO
    2) declaring those who do not believe in BoD (as a personal position) to be schismatics/heretics

    I didn't entirely disagree with #1, but argued that Feeneyites (vs. Dimondites) do not fall into that category.

    Now you've moved on to #2.  In point of fact, Papa, the Church has never condemned those who don't believe in BoD to be heretics.  So you're arrogating unto yourself the Church's prerogative to declare people heretics.  In other words, you're doing the same thing you accused those who fell under your condemnation of #1 to be doing.

    So you shift and weasel around from one attack to another ... which I have always found to be prima facie evidence of being of bad will.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #25 on: February 04, 2021, 10:38:15 AM »
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    • This guy is either Lover of Heresy or else that guy who runs the Baptism of Desire website.
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    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #26 on: February 04, 2021, 11:05:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 04, 2021, 10:38:15 AM
    This guy is either Lover of Heresy or else that guy who runs the Baptism of Desire website.
    Another Ad hominem from Ladi. No surprise there.  :clown:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #27 on: February 04, 2021, 11:05:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Papa Pius V on February 04, 2021, 11:03:24 AM
    Let me be absolutely clear so you are able to comprehend the argument:

    Ridiculous.  You weaseled and shifted from one position to another and now claim it's due to my inability to comprehend.

    Evidently you fail to understand the difference, from the standpoint of English syntax, between claiming 

    1) that it's heretical to consider BoD to be heretical
    2) that it's heretical to not believe in BoD

    But neither logic nor the English language seems to be your strengths.
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    Offline Papa Pius V

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #28 on: February 04, 2021, 11:07:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 04, 2021, 11:05:57 AM
    Ridiculous.  You weaseled and shifted from one position to another and now claim it's due to my inability to comprehend.
    Your slithering does you no good if all you can muster is an accusation without proof.
    Perhaps a course in Logic 101 will do you some good, Ladi.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #29 on: February 04, 2021, 11:08:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Papa Pius V on February 04, 2021, 11:07:57 AM
    Your slithering does you no good if all you can muster is an accusation without proof.
    Perhaps a course in Logic 101 will do you some good, Ladi.

    Imbecile, the proof is in your first post.

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