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Author Topic: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 33468 times)

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Re: The Absurdities of The BODers
« Reply #140 on: February 06, 2021, 08:15:19 AM »
I do not believe you agree with St. Alphonsus.

Knowing that a BOD is not a sacrament, the great saint said:

"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as the heretics say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire". -
From: (An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)

Am I right, do you disagree with him here?

Sorry man, but this deserves a big :facepalm: How is it that BODers do not see that a BOD is justification by faith alone?

Trent says if anyone saith that men obtain justification without the desire for the sacrament, let him be anathema.
Trent NEVER says that *with* the desire, men obtain justification, only that without it there is no justification. Which means they purposely left the idea of justification via a desire up in the air. But they were quite clear on the necessity of the sacrament for salvation.

So BODers cannot say honestly, that Trent teaches such a thing as, "with a desire men are justified", and to say a BOD saves is a blatant misquote of Trent. BODers, if they are going to quote Trent, must do so honestly and can only say "without the desire, men are not justified" - which means what it says. What you said in bold is your own opinion shared by others, even other great saints - but that is *not* what the Church infallibly taught at Trent.

Which is to say the title of this thread should be changed to The Absurdity of the BODers
I agree entirely with St. Alphonsus. Let me ask you, if St. Alphonsus was alive, and you wrote to him, and he and the Popes who praised him (including Pope Benedict XIV, who once said "You have Bp. Liguori with you; why write to me; just ask him") corrected you, would you submit as a Catholic, or would you stubbornly resist him, which could come close to formal heresy?
St. Alphonsus teaches anyone who denies that Baptism of Desire justifies commits heresy. You can see that he did not interpret Trent like you do (and in Benedictus Deus the Pope forbad anyone to put their own unauthorized private interpretation spin on Trent without Papal approval, which St. Alphonsus had), and the reason is because there was no reason to include "and the desire thereof", using voto, the same word used for Perfect Contrition in reference to receiving the effect of the Sacrament of Penance in desire, if Baptism or its desire did not justify. It is said that no one can be justified without Baptism, or the desire thereof, so that it may be understood that Baptism is necessary for at least in voto, i.e. in desire and charity with contrition. This is confirmed in the Catechism.
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   Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th century): The Sacraments, Baptism: "...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

To your questions, of course I don't disagree with St. Alphonsus. Protestants denied the necessity of the Sacraments because they denied that Baptism justified and thus was necessary for salvation. I condemn the Protestant idea and agree with St. Alphonsus.

Next, if you've read St. Thomas, you would know Baptism of Desire is not faith alone, which is dead, as St. James says (Jam 2:20), but precisely "faith that worketh by charity" (Gal 5:6), as St. Paul says, which immєdιαtely justifies, when it is joined to the desire of the Sacraments.

Here is St. Thomas: ·    St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church (13th century): Summa Theologica, Whether there are two ways to be distinguished of eating Christ's body?
“Consequently, just as some are baptized with the Baptism of desire, through their desire of baptism, before being baptized in the Baptism of water; so likewise some eat this sacrament spiritually ere they receive it sacramentally.” ..

“Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

Here is Fr. Haydock, on Cornelius, who was Baptized by Desire before any external Sacrament: "Can any man forbid water? &c. or doubt that these, on whom the Holy Ghost hath descended, may be made members of the Christian Church, by baptism, as Christ ordained? (Witham) --- Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. (St. Augustine, sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4.)"

Any other questions? God Bless.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Absurdities of The BODers
« Reply #141 on: February 06, 2021, 11:29:33 AM »
I agree entirely with St. Alphonsus. Let me ask you, if St. Alphonsus was alive, and you wrote to him, and he and the Popes who praised him (including Pope Benedict XIV, who once said "You have Bp. Liguori with you; why write to me; just ask him") corrected you, would you submit as a Catholic, or would you stubbornly resist him, which could come close to formal heresy?
St. Alphonsus teaches anyone who denies that Baptism of Desire justifies commits heresy.
I would ask him to explain Canon IV, starting with the first sentence which condemns with anathema anyone who says that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation. By what you just posted, St. Alphonusus accuses Trent of heresy.


Quote
   Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th century): The Sacraments, Baptism: "...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

It says "unforeseen accident", not "unforeseen accidental death" or "accidental death".

Note that it says their desire to receive baptism "will avail" (not guarantee) them to "grace and righteousness" - not salvation. Grace and righteousness are those things only those who are living strive for and need, the dead no longer have need for or a chance to gain either, their time for that passed when they died. Remember, for your quote there is no danger of death, only an impediment to the reception of the sacrament. When there is a danger of death, the catechism teaches:

In Case Of Necessity Adults May Be Baptised At Once

Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptised is well instructed in the mysteries of faith. This we find to have been done by Philip, and by the Prince of the Apostles, when without any delay, the one baptised the eunuch of Queen Candace; the other, Cornelius, as soon as they expressed a wish to embrace the faith.

But according to BODers, this teaching can be discarded, as it is altogether unnecessary thanks to a BOD.


In the end, BODers will ignore or make other wild claims regarding Trent's clear and infallible teaching, as if the saints' whose opinions differ from Trent, are the authority, or as if their opinions are additions to Trent - as if there is no contradiction whatsoever present between the two.



Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #142 on: February 06, 2021, 11:42:27 AM »

Quote
Rather he taught it with force in an encyclical.

No.  It's not an article of Faith. 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Absurdities of The BODers
« Reply #143 on: February 06, 2021, 11:46:40 AM »
Blessed Pius IX didn't mention invincible ignorance as a theoretical possibility. Rather he taught it with force in an encyclical.

What you are arguing is not different from invincible ignorance. Follow natural law and you shall be saved =/= being a member of the Catholic Church.
Yes, Pope Pius IX is very clear. He first states: "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching".

Do not touch one single word of his next sentence until you firmly accept and understand what he first says above.
He then continues....

"There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion".

Note that the people he is talking about  are not invincibly ignorant adults, or some native on a desert island. Rather, the people he refers to are normal, have intellect, knows how to think and are intelligent in things other than our holy religion but who now struggles with their invincible ignorance about our holy religion, which means the people he is talking about are sincerely trying to find out about our holy religion. He is not talking about those incapable of thinking, nor is he saying those invincibly ignorant of our holy religion can be saved invincibly ignorant of our holy religion.

Concerning the people Pius IX was talking about, Our Lord said: "For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened". These are those who are "struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion".



Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Absurdities of The Feeneyites
« Reply #144 on: February 06, 2021, 03:27:12 PM »
Pius IX. Singulari Quidem. AD 1856.
‘This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.'

In the passage above Blessed Pius IX states in unambiguous terms that the possibility of salvation exists for those who die outside the church, not those who currently live outside the church.  Otherwise he wouldn’t have concluded the above passage with the clause “…unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.”  This clause is the key to understanding the meaning of Pius' words.
A person that is in "Ignorance beyond his control" is a person who is incapable of thinking, one who is born or by some misfortune became brain damaged - and the default position there is that he is damned - "unless he is excused" by God.    

Whenever you think of the possibility of justification and salvation for the invincibly ignorant, do yourself a huge, giant favor and *never* use the term "invincibly ignorant", rather, hence forth *always* replace that term with: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion".