Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: St. Ambrose and Valentinian - A Remarkable Footnote  (Read 656 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ihsv

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 704
  • Reputation: +951/-118
  • Gender: Male
St. Ambrose and Valentinian - A Remarkable Footnote
« on: January 05, 2024, 01:01:32 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is in regards to St. Ambrose and Baptism of Desire.  I found a fascinating footnote in Migne's Patrologia Latina that I've never seen quoted before, but in my opinion it's pretty potent. 

    Here is a screenshot of the appropriate page (Volume 16, column 394) with the relevant parts highlighted in yellow. 



    And here is a direct link to the book online:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=MwcRAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

    I'm using Artificial Intelligence to help translate these:

    St. Ambrose writes: 

    Ideoque legisti quod tres testes in baptismate unum sunt, aqua, sanguis, et Spiritus (1 John 5:7 ); quia si in unum horum detrahas, non stat baptismatis sacramentum. Quid est enim aqua sine cruce Christi? Elementum commune, sine ullo sacramenti effectu. Nec iterum sine aqua, regenerationis mysterium est: Nisi enim quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu, non potest introire in regnum Dei  (John 3:5). Credit autem etiam catechumenus in crucem Domini Jesu, qua et ipse signatur : sed nisi baptizatus fuerit in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus sancti, remissionem non potest accipere peccatorum, nec spiritualis gratix munus haurife.


    My AI translation:  Therefore, you have read that there are three witnesses in baptism: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:7). Because if you take away one of these, the sacrament of baptism does not stand. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element, without any sacramental effect. And again, without water, there is no mystery of regeneration: For unless a person is born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5). Moreover, even the catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which he himself is signed. But unless he has been baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins, nor can he draw from the well of spiritual grace.

    Footnote "e" from that page is a real bombshell: 

    Duo ex his verbis advertere est : 1) necessitatem baptismi ad peccatorum etiam in catechumenis ablutionem, quod similiter docetur in Psalm 118, serm. 3, pag. 991, unde inferimus Ambrosium in ea opinione quae ipsi de Valentiniano imperatore tribuitur, nequaquam fuisse : 2) ad baptismi formam tres divinas personas necessario exprimi oportere; ex quo sententiam de sacramenti ejusdem sub Christi tantum nomine administrati validitate perperam ipsi imponi deducimus. At de utraque re suis locis.

    My AI translation: Two points must be noted from these words: 1) the necessity of baptism for the washing away of sins, even in catechumens, as similarly taught in Psalm 118, sermon 3, page 991, FROM WHICH WE CONCLUDE THAT AMBROSE WAS BY NO MEANS OF THE OPINION THAT IS ATTRIBUTED TO HIM REGARDING EMPEROR VALENTINIAN; 2) that the form of baptism must necessarily express the three divine persons; hence we deduce that the view of the validity of the sacrament being administered under the name of Christ alone is mistakenly attributed to him. However, each of these points will be discussed in their appropriate places.

    I want to verify that the Latin translation of the above is accurate, since I'm using AI to help with that.  I also wanted to ask if anyone's ever seen that footnote before.  I've certainly never seen it, and it sure seems to throw a big bucket of cold water on those who quote St. Ambrose's Funeral Oration of the emperor Valentinian II.


    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 42101
    • Reputation: +24090/-4346
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Ambrose and Valentinian
    « Reply #1 on: January 05, 2024, 01:16:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've never seen the footnote.  Great find.  Yes, the translation is very accurate (though I haven't looked at every word).  It's impressive how good the various translators have become.

    What is the exact citation from St. Ambrose?  I think he had some similar quote in De Sacramentis that I've read before.

    Often it's written off that St. Ambrose contradicted himself, but the editor here won't accept a change or contradiction.

    If you read the actual Oration for Valentinian, St. Ambrose hopes that Valentinian, by way of his desire, might be in a position similar to that of the martyrs, where they are "washed but not crowned".  St. Ambrose's notion of "Baptism of Desire" has to do with a remission of punishment due to sin, a "washing" without the "crowning" (=entry into the Kingdom or the Beatific Vision), which was said to be made possible by the seal of Baptism.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 42101
    • Reputation: +24090/-4346
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Ambrose and Valentinian - A Remarkable Footnote
    « Reply #2 on: January 05, 2024, 01:21:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've pointed hits out before, that the ENTIRE BoD house of cards always rested on the "authority of Augustine and Ambrose" ... as Pope Innocent stated (not of course his papal authority).

    But St. Augustine clearly retracted his youthful speculation about BoD, and St. Ambrose never held a BoD that sufficed for salvation, i.e. entry into the Kingdom, into the Beatific Vision.  I've said this for a very long time, but it's great to see some confirmation from the editor of Migne.

    When the pre-scholastics were debating the issue, Hugh of St. Victor (pro) and Abelard (con) were debating the matter, so Peter Lombard went to St. Bernard for his verdict.  St. Bernard said that he's rather be wrong with Augustine than right on his own.  Peter Lombard went with it, included it in his Sentences, which became THE scholastic manual, and from there St. Thomas picked it up and from him it went viral.

    But the SOLE "authority" for BoD was always placed on either St. Augustine (retracted) or St. Ambrose (misinterpreted).

    BoD evaporates like the bad dream that it is now that it's been demonstrated that neither of these two ultimately held the opinion.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 42101
    • Reputation: +24090/-4346
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Ambrose and Valentinian - A Remarkable Footnote
    « Reply #3 on: January 05, 2024, 01:24:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • However, each of these points will be discussed in their appropriate places.

    I wonder if these other places where it's discussed could be found.  Perhaps if we looked at the similar passage in his commentary on the Psalms.

    Offline ihsv

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 704
    • Reputation: +951/-118
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Ambrose and Valentinian - A Remarkable Footnote
    « Reply #4 on: January 05, 2024, 01:25:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • More than that, I suggest people look at Valentinian II and how he died.  He was found hung in his room at the age of 21, and there is an ongoing debate over whether he was murdered or committed ѕυιcιdє.  That mystery has never been solved.  Hardly the prime candidate for Baptism of Desire.

    His father (Emperor Valentinian I) was a Catholic, while his mother (Empress Justina) was an Arian.  Are we to believe these two raised their son to the age of 21 without having him baptized?

    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline ihsv

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 704
    • Reputation: +951/-118
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Ambrose and Valentinian - A Remarkable Footnote
    « Reply #5 on: January 05, 2024, 01:36:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here's Minge's footnote to the relevant part in Valentinian's Funeral Oration: 

    (38) Perhaps no one among the Catholic Fathers asserts the absolute necessity of receiving baptism more than Ambrose in various places, especially in the book "De Abraham" chapter 11, number 81; sermon 2 in Psalm cxviii, number 14; and the book "De Mysteriis" chapter 4, number 20. However, all these testimonies should be understood in such a way that baptism, which they call "in voto" (in desire), is not denied to be sufficient for salvation when baptism in water cannot be obtained. This is made clear where both the present passage and others discuss the same concept of baptismal desire. Pope Innocent III, in a letter written to the Bishop of Cremona, confirms the sincere desire for the same sacrament, stating that salvation is assured by the testimony of our teacher, even if it cannot be received in reality. Bernard, in his treatise addressed to Hugo Fictorinus, declares that he embraces this opinion by the authority of both Ambrose and Augustine. Lastly, Hugo of St. Victor, in "De Sacramentis Baptismi" chapter 5; Blessed Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica II, question 68, article 2; and the Master of Sentences in Book IV, Distinction 4, and others, including the common scholastic tradition, commonly cite this very passage of the discourse for confirmation.

    https://archive.org/details/patrologiaecurs70unkngoog/page/n711/mode/2up?view=theater

    All the individuals quoted in the above footnote appeal to Ambrose and Augustine.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 42101
    • Reputation: +24090/-4346
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Ambrose and Valentinian - A Remarkable Footnote
    « Reply #6 on: January 05, 2024, 02:45:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So Migne seems to be walking it back with that latest footnote.  Of course, there are very likely multiple editors involved, which would explain the inconsistency.  Might be nice to see that second footnote in Latin.

    You're right, EVERYONE who later accepted BoD hanged his proverbial hat on "the authority of Augustine and Ambrose".

    Augustine floated the idea very tentatively, saying he went back and forth on it, ending with "I find ..." [in favor of BoD].  No sense whatsoever that this is received Tradition or that he's teaching it with authority, just very tentatively opining in favor of it.  So this is the "authority" of Augustine, an admitted speculation that he had gone back and forth on?  And then it's very clear that he retracted the opinion forcefully, issuing some of the most anti-BoD statements in existence.  Even Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner had to concede that he later rejected the idea.  So much for the "authority" of St. Augustine.

    St. Ambrose rejects BoD numerous times, and if you look at the context of Valentinian, he says that he hopes that Valentinian could be like the martyrs, but then says that even those are "washed but not crowned".  That refers to some remission of punishment due to sin, but without crowning, which is entry into the Kingdom, or Beatific Vision.

    So BoD falls like a house of cards.

    Not to mention that there's zero need for it.  To say otherwise would be to constrain God's Providence by "necessity", as if God could be thwarted from getting the Sacrament to His elect (something that St. Augustine pointed out could not be denied "if you wish to be Catholic").

    Offline OABrownson1876

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 451
    • Reputation: +358/-23
    • Gender: Male
      • The Orestes Brownson Society
    Re: St. Ambrose and Valentinian - A Remarkable Footnote
    « Reply #7 on: January 05, 2024, 03:58:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A great find IHSV.  And I like the last line by St. Ambrose, "sed nisi baptizatus fuerit in nomine Patris, et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, remissionem non potest accipere peccatorum, nec spiritualis gratiae munus harire."

    "but unless he will have been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, he is not able to receive the remission of sins, nor to draw out the spiritual gift of grace." AI did not do a bad job, but a little freedom was allowed.  In the last line I do not see the word "well," and the line should be either, "nor to draw the gift of spiritual grace," or "nor to draw the spiritual gift of grace."  I like the second translation personally.  The question is, is 'spiritualis' an adjective modifying 'munus' or is it in the genitive case working in conjunction with grace?  The overall sense of both translations is the same.

    I need to dig into Migne and find out what Tertullian said about Baptism.  Tertullian preceded St. Augustine and St. Jerome, and Jerome said that Tertullian wrote an astounding 2,000 books/treatises.   


    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 42101
    • Reputation: +24090/-4346
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Ambrose and Valentinian - A Remarkable Footnote
    « Reply #8 on: January 05, 2024, 06:16:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A great find IHSV.  And I like the last line by St. Ambrose, "sed nisi baptizatus fuerit in nomine Patris, et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, remissionem non potest accipere peccatorum, nec spiritualis gratiae munus harire."

    "but unless he will have been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, he is not able to receive the remission of sins, nor to draw out the spiritual gift of grace." AI did not do a bad job, but a little freedom was allowed.  In the last line I do not see the word "well," and the line should be either, "nor to draw the gift of spiritual grace," or "nor to draw the spiritual gift of grace."  I like the second translation personally.  The question is, is 'spiritualis' an adjective modifying 'munus' or is it in the genitive case working in conjunction with grace?  The overall sense of both translations is the same.

    I need to dig into Migne and find out what Tertullian said about Baptism.  Tertullian preceded St. Augustine and St. Jerome, and Jerome said that Tertullian wrote an astounding 2,000 books/treatises. 

    'spiritualis' goes with 'gratiae'.  'munus' is a neuter noun, so spiritualis would have to be declined 'spirituale', so 'munus spirituale'

    I don't mind the use of "well" in conjunction with 'haurire'.  I think that "draw" doesn't necessarily have the implication in English of drinking, as the Latin 'haurire' does.  Perhaps "imbibe"?  So, "imbibe the gift of spiritual grace" or perhaps just "draw from".  As we know from the Bennyvacantist issue, 'munus' means office or service, but it came to mean gift because it's also a service given to others.