Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 11966 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 11208
  • Reputation: +6861/-1861
  • Gender: Male
Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2023, 07:13:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Scripture's infallible teaching that God gives all men sufficient grace does not lead to V2 errors.  :facepalm:  I already pointed out that JP2 garbled this truth and corrupted it for ecuмenical purposes.  

    The point you miss is the Eternal goodness of God's Providence, who sees all things - past, present and future - at the same time.  So, for an infant who dies, God forsaw the graces this infant WOULD RECEIVE IN THE FUTURE, and reject them, so He took their life early, so to prevent damnation.  

    The above is an example of Gods mercy, not a denial of Scripture.  

    Offline Kazimierz

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7655
    • Reputation: +3877/-88
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #76 on: September 07, 2023, 07:21:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That God's wills all to be saved - condition for the possibility. God has provided the means for salvation, but one can still reject His grace. 

    Unless you follow Rahner, where you are so overwhelmed by grace via the supernatural existential, you CANNOT say no. I called it "damned to salvation."
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline Motorede

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 338
    • Reputation: +197/-41
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #77 on: September 07, 2023, 08:06:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Augustine:
    Where can I find this quote? Confessions? City of God? Thanks

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2237
    • Reputation: +830/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1679
    • Reputation: +736/-109
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #79 on: September 07, 2023, 08:41:28 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Saint Fulgentius:

    “Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
    -2 Timothy 2:4

    “Nevertheless, these “all men” whom God wishes to save include not the entire human race altogether, but rather the totality of those who are to be saved. 

    So the word “all” is mentioned because the divine kindness saves all kinds from among all men, that is, from every race, status, and age, from every language and every region.”

    -St Fulgentius of Ruspe-Correspondence on Christology and Grace.



    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 43961
    • Reputation: +25501/-4408
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #81 on: September 07, 2023, 10:27:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Saint Fulgentius:

    “Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
    -2 Timothy 2:4

    “Nevertheless, these “all men” whom God wishes to save include not the entire human race altogether, but rather the totality of those who are to be saved.

    So the word “all” is mentioned because the divine kindness saves all kinds from among all men, that is, from every race, status, and age, from every language and every region.”

    -St Fulgentius of Ruspe-Correspondence on Christology and Grace.

    Interesting quote.  I haven't seen this one before.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2237
    • Reputation: +830/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #82 on: September 07, 2023, 10:40:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Saint Fulgentius:

    “Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
    -2 Timothy 2:4

    “Nevertheless, these “all men” whom God wishes to save include not the entire human race altogether, but rather the totality of those who are to be saved.

    So the word “all” is mentioned because the divine kindness saves all kinds from among all men, that is, from every race, status, and age, from every language and every region.”

    -St Fulgentius of Ruspe-Correspondence on Christology and Grace.

    St. Fulgentius's view thus accords with the first two of the three senses in which 2 Tim 2:4 may be understood according to St. Thomas:

    Quote
    Reply to Objection 1. The words of the Apostle, "God will have all men to be saved," etc. can be understood in three ways.


    First, by a restricted application, in which case they would mean, as Augustine says (De praed. sanct. i, 8: Enchiridion 103), "God wills all men to be saved that are saved, not because there is no man whom He does not wish saved, but because there is no man saved whose salvation He does not will."

    Secondly, they can be understood as applying to every class of individuals, not to every individual of each class; in which case they mean that God wills some men of every class and condition to be saved, males and females, Jєωs and Gentiles, great and small, but not all of every condition.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline trad123

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2042
    • Reputation: +448/-96
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #83 on: September 07, 2023, 10:50:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • 1 Timothy 2:4
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2237
    • Reputation: +830/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #84 on: September 10, 2023, 07:41:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    St. Augustine

    On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I)


    Chapter 30.— Why One is Baptized and Another Not, Not Otherwise Inscrutable.

    Now those very persons, who think it unjust that infants which depart this life without the grace of Christ should be deprived not only of the kingdom of God, into which they themselves admit that none but such as are regenerated through baptism can enter, but also of eternal life and salvation — when they ask how it can be just that one man should be freed from original sin and another not, although the condition of both of them is the same, might answer their own question, in accordance with their own opinion of how it can be so frequently just and right that one should have baptism administered to him whereby to enter into the kingdom of God, and another not be so favoured, although the case of both is alike. For if the question disturbs him, why, of the two persons, who are both equally sinners by nature, the one is loosed from that bond, on whom baptism is conferred, and the other is not released, on whom such grace is not bestowed; why is he not similarly disturbed by the fact that of two persons, innocent by nature, one receives baptism, whereby he is able to enter into the kingdom of God, and the other does not receive it, so that he is incapable of approaching the kingdom of God? Now in both cases one recurs to the apostle's outburst of wonder O the depth of the riches! Again, let me be informed, why out of the body of baptized infants themselves, one is taken away, so that his understanding undergoes no change from a wicked life, Wisdom 4:11 and the other survives, destined to become an impious man? Suppose both were carried off, would not both enter the kingdom of heaven? And yet there is no unrighteousness with God. Romans 9:14 How is it that no one is moved, no one is driven to the expression of wonder amidst such depths, by the circuмstance that some children are vexed by the unclean spirit, while others experience no such pollution, and others again, as Jeremiah, are sanctified even in their mother's womb; Jeremiah 1:5 whereas all men, if there is original sin, are equally guilty; or else equally innocent if there is original sin? Whence this great diversity, except in the fact that God's judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out?


    CHURCH FATHERS: On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants, Book I (Augustine) (newadvent.org)
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2237
    • Reputation: +830/-139
    • Gender: Male
    St. Augustine - The Gift of Perseverance in the Faith
    « Reply #85 on: December 31, 2023, 07:04:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • St. Augustine, A Treatise on rebuke and grace, In One Book, addressed to valentine, and with him to the monks of adrumetum.

     a.d. 426 or 427




    Chapter 10—All Perseverance is God’s Gift. 

    Is such an one as is unwilling to be rebuked still able to say, “What have I done,—I who have not received?” when it appears plainly that he has received, and by his own fault has lost that which he has received? “I am able,” says he, “I am altogether able,—when you reprove me for having of my own will relapsed from a good life into a bad one,—still to say, What have I done,—I who have not received? For I have received faith, which worketh by love, but I have not received perseverance therein to the end. Will any one dare to say that this perseverance is not the gift of God, and that so great a possession as this is ours in such wise that if any one have it the apostle could not say to him, ‘For what hast thou which thou hast not received?’( 1 Cor. iv. 7 . ) since he has this in such a manner as that he has not received it?” To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God; and that it exists not save it come from Him of whom it is written, “Every best gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights.”( Jas. i. 17 . ) But the rebuke of him who has not persevered must not on that account be neglected, “lest God perchance give unto him repentance, and he recover from the snares of the devil;”( 2 Tim. ii. 25 . ) since to the usefulness of rebuke the apostle has subjoined this decision, saying, as I have above mentioned, “Rebuking with moderation those that think differently, lest at any time God give them repentance.”( 2 Tim. ii. 25 . ) For if we should say that such a perseverance, so laudable and so blessed, is man’s in such wise as that he has it not from God, we first of all make void that which the Lord says to Peter: “I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not.”( Luke xxii. 32 . ) For what did He ask for him, but perseverance to the end? And assuredly, if a man could have this from man, it should not have been asked from God. Then when the apostle says, “Now we pray to God that ye do no evil,”( 2 Cor. xiii. 7 . ) beyond a doubt he prays to God on their behalf for perseverance. For certainly he does not “do no evil” who forsakes good, and, not persevering in good, turns to the evil, from which he ought to turn aside.[ 527 ] In that place, moreover, where he says, “I thank my God in every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making quest with joy for your fellowship[ 528 ] in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,”( Phil. i. 3 , et seq . )—what else does he promise to them from the mercy of God than perseverance in good to the end? And again where he says, “Epaphras saluteth you, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, always striving for you in prayer, that you may stand perfect and fulfilled in all the will of God,”( Col. iv. 12 . )—what is “that you may stand” but “that you may persevere”? Whence it was said of the devil, “He stood not in the truth;”( John viii. 24 . ) because he was there, but he did not continue. For assuredly those were already standing in the faith. And when we pray that he who stands may stand, we do not pray for anything else than that he may persevere. Jude the apostle, again, when he says, “Now unto Him that is able to keep you without offence, and to establish you before the presence of His glory, immaculate in joy,”( Jude 24 . ) does he not most manifestly show that perseverance in good unto the end is God’s gift? For what but a good perseverance does He give who preserves without offence that He may place before the presence of His glory immaculate in joy? What is it, moreover, that we read in the Acts of the Apostles: “And when the Gentiles heard, they rejoiced and received the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed”? ( Acts xiii. 48 . ) Who could be ordained to eternal life save by the gift of perseverance? And when we read, “He that shall persevere unto the end shall be saved;”( Matt. x. 22 . ) with what salvation but eternal? And when, in the Lord’s Prayer, we say to God the Father, “Hallowed be Thy name,”( Matt. vi. 9 . ) what do we ask but that His name may be hallowed in us? And as this is already accomplished by means of the laver of regeneration, why is it daily asked by believers, except that we may persevere in that which is already done in us? For the blessed Cyprian also understands this in this manner, inasmuch as, in his exposition of the same prayer, he says: “We say, ‘Hallowed be Thy name,’ not that we wish for God that He may be hallowed by our prayers, but that we ask of God that His name may be hallowed in us. But by whom is God hallowed; since He Himself hallows? Well, because He said, ‘Be ye holy, since I also am holy;’[ 529 ] we ask and entreat that we who have been hallowed in baptism may persevere in that which we have begun to be.”[ 530 ] Behold the most glorious martyr is of this opinion, that what in these words Christ’s faithful people are daily asking is, that they may persevere in that which they have begun to be. And no one need doubt, but that whosoever prays from the Lord that he may persevere in good, confesses thereby that such perseverance is His gift.

    Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 10117-10119). Kindle Edition.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2237
    • Reputation: +830/-139
    • Gender: Male
    St. Augustine - None of the Elect Can Perish
    « Reply #86 on: January 02, 2024, 06:42:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    St. Augustine, A Treatise on rebuke and grace, In One Book, addressed to valentine, and with him to the monks of adrumetum.

    a.d. 426 or 427



    Chapter 14 — None of the Elect and Predestinated Can Perish


    . . . For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing. Moreover, they are elected to reign with Christ, not as Judas was elected, to a work for which he was fitted. Because he was chosen by Him who well knew how to make use even of wicked men, so that even by his damnable deed that venerable work, for the sake of which He Himself had come, might be accomplished. When, therefore, we hear, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?”( John vi. 70 . ) we ought to understand that the rest were elected by mercy, but he by judgment; those to obtain His kingdom, he to shed His blood!

    Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 10126). Kindle Edition.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.