Author Topic: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written  (Read 1792 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2019, 12:24:24 PM »
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  • One who identifies as Protestant denies the above doctrines, by definition.  They cannot be saved as a Protestant, no matter their good will.  How do you define "good will" anyway?  They can only be saved if they ACTIVELY reject their heresies, their protestant religion and become catholic.  Salvation is not in the mind.  Being a catholic is not a mental state.  Christ told us to (actively) do good and avoid evil.  We must EAT His Flesh and DRINK His blood to be saved; we cannot just believe.  To become a catholic is to act to join the Faith.  "Good will" is a mental first step, but it requires the fulfillment of the desire for Truth.  "Good will" does not supply the sacraments; it does not supply membership in the Church; it cannot supply heaven.
    If the John 6 passage allows for no exceptions whatsoever, why is it that baptized infants in the Western Rite aren't damned?  (Since, unlike the Eastern Rite, the western rite does not allow infants to receive communion.)  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #16 on: August 08, 2019, 12:43:37 PM »
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  • The Eucharist requires necessary instruction before reception.  The requirement to receive begins when one has reason and proper instruction.  But one in a protestant religion rejects even the belief of the Eucharist.  He could not accept instruction in something he rejects.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #17 on: August 08, 2019, 01:48:15 PM »
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  • If the John 6 passage allows for no exceptions whatsoever, why is it that baptized infants in the Western Rite aren't damned?  (Since, unlike the Eastern Rite, the western rite does not allow infants to receive communion.)  

    That's because there are two different types of necessity involved.  Only Baptism is necessary by necessity of means for salvation.  Holy Communion is not.  I'll try to look up the theological passages on this subject later.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #18 on: August 08, 2019, 01:49:53 PM »
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  • Moral Necessity and Necessity of Precept for Holy Communion (while Necessity of Means for Baptism)

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07402a.htm

    The doctrine of the Church is that Holy Communion is morally necessary for salvation, that is to say, without the graces of this sacrament it would be very difficult to resist grave temptations and avoid grievous sin. Moreover, there is according to theologians a Divine precept by which all are bound to receive communion at least some times during life. How often this precept urges outside the danger of death it is not easy to say, but many hold that the Church has practically determined the Divine precept by the law of the Fourth Council of Lateran (c.xxi) confirmed by Trent, which obliges the faithful to receive Communion once each year within Paschal Time.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #19 on: August 08, 2019, 01:52:25 PM »
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  • http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#ix

    Theologians distinguish a twofold necessity, which they call a necessity of means (medii) and a necessity of precept (præcepti). The first (medii) indicates a thing to be so necessary that, if lacking (though inculpably), salvation can not be attained. The second (præcepti) is had when a thing is indeed so necessary that it may not be omitted voluntarily without sin; yet, ignorance of the precept or inability to fulfill it, excuses one from its observance.

    Baptism is held to be necessary both necessitate medii and præcepti. This doctrine is grounded on the words of Christ. In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." Christ makes no exception to this law and it is therefore general in its application, embracing both adults and infants. It is consequently not merely a necessity of precept but also a necessity of means.

    This is the sense in which it has always been understood by the Church, and the Council of Trent (Sess, IV, cap, vi) teaches that justification can not be obtained, since the promulgation of the Gospel, without the washing of regeneration or the desire thereof (in voto). In the seventh session, it declares (can. v) anathema upon anyone who says that baptism is not necessary for salvation. We have rendered votum by "desire" for want of a better word. The council does not mean by votum a simple desire of receiving baptism or even a resolution to do so. It means by votum an act of perfect charity or contrition, including, at least implicitly, the will to do all things necessary for salvation and thus especially to receive baptism.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #20 on: August 08, 2019, 03:03:50 PM »
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  • That's because there are two different types of necessity involved.  Only Baptism is necessary by necessity of means for salvation.  Holy Communion is not.  I'll try to look up the theological passages on this subject later.
    Contextually, we were discussing the view that all who claim to be Protestants are damned.  So it wasn't about baptism of desire per se there.  I forget exactly how we got there, because I'm in all three of the discussions on this issue that are going on at the moment.

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #21 on: August 08, 2019, 06:46:24 PM »
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  • Byzcat, to be clear Feenyism denies baptism of blood and desire

    Some here deny any baptism of desire only

    Some hold that there is limited baptism of desire (for example they believe that if you are of good will and desire to join the Church you are in the same state as a catechumen ) trying to follow the doctrine of the Church which says that it is possible to obtain the state of sanctifying grace before the reception of the sacraments (like for example how a perfect act of contrition justifies before confession). Which is borne out in scripture (Peter referring to the saved outside the ark, and the paralytic who was told his sins were forgiven by Christ without either faith or contrition, as well as St. Emerentiana and countless martyrs saved without water baptism and prayed to in countless liturgies)
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #22 on: August 08, 2019, 06:53:58 PM »
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  • Byzcat, to be clear Feenyism denies baptism of blood and desire

    Some here deny any baptism of desire only

    Some hold that there is limited baptism of desire (for example they believe that if you are of good will and desire to join the Church you are in the same state as a catechumen ) trying to follow the doctrine of the Church which says that it is possible to obtain the state of sanctifying grace before the reception of the sacraments (like for example how a perfect act of contrition justifies before confession). Which is borne out in scripture (Peter referring to the saved outside the ark, and the paralytic who was told his sins were forgiven by Christ without either faith or contrition, as well as St. Emerentiana and countless martyrs saved without water baptism and prayed to in countless liturgies)
    It seems like the logic behind denying baptism of desire and baptism of blood would be similar, right?

    I honestly see zero issue with what +Lefebvre said about this issue, its kinda weird/surprising to me that most people here are taking a line that's stricter than what Lefebvre did, just 'cause of what this forum is, not 'cause Lefebvre is automatically right.


    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #23 on: August 08, 2019, 07:04:46 PM »
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  • Also you asked about the three sacraments of initiation (this is the eastern view) but as Ladislas pointed out the view is different in the west. You probably need to know the three positions to see where you fit before  wading into the sea of argument
    :cheers: :popcorn:
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #24 on: August 08, 2019, 07:06:14 PM »
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  • Yes essentially Feenyites are Dogmatic about it. Also remember that according to definition original sins guilt is being born without sanctifying grace which is obtained in more than 1 way
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #25 on: August 08, 2019, 07:56:27 PM »
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  • Yes essentially Feenyites are Dogmatic about it.

    About what?  We are certainly dogmatic about the fact that there's no salvation outside the Church.  What do you have in mind here?


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #26 on: August 08, 2019, 07:59:01 PM »
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  • About what?  We are certainly dogmatic about the fact that there's no salvation outside the Church.  What do you have in mind here?
    Not just that.  Also a particular definition of what it means to be outside the church.  Which is the issue at hand.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #27 on: August 08, 2019, 11:20:10 PM »
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  • Quote
    honestly see zero issue with what +Lefebvre said about this issue

    What +ABL was arguing for has nothing to do with BOD; the question of “ignorant” non-Catholics is a totally separate question.  It’s also easier to answer because theologians are much more in unison.  +ABL’s opinion is totally contrary to St Thomas, St Augustine and (most recently) Pope St Pius X.  The fact that people mix-n-match the issues of “ignorance of the Faith” with BOD shows the depths of confusion that the enemies of the Church have sown since the 1600s.  It also shows the extreme deterioration of critical thinking of Modern man. 

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #28 on: August 09, 2019, 12:19:53 AM »
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  • Ladislas I am not suggesting anything else than that they hold as dogmatic opinions not expressly condemned. One can hold a EENS without being a heretic for believing in baptism of blood. To a Feenyite it would be heresy. Hope that clarifys my statement
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #29 on: August 09, 2019, 08:27:37 AM »
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  • Quote
    One can hold a EENS without being a heretic for believing in baptism of blood. To a Feenyite it would be heresy.
    That's not true.  BOD/BOB is not heresy, yet it's not "de fide".  The gray area which the Church has yet to define applies to catechumens only.  Feeneyites call heresy when anyone speaks of BOD/BOB in relation to people who are not formal catechumens.  This is the only situation that the Church Fathers, St Thomas and St Alphonsus speak of it.  They too, would consider it heresy.


     

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