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Offline Last Tradhican

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  • The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #1 on: August 08, 2019, 02:02:48 AM »
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  • [font=&quot,serif]At least he was honest. I think that is the reason all BODers are so thickheaded, there is scarcely one that limits it to baptism of desire of the catechumen. And the reason why they think that way I believe is:
     
     #1 they think that Hell is an amorphous solid mass of horrific punishments
     #2 they think that people are just born into a situation and God has to deal with them then.
     #3 they think that clear dogma has to be interpreted by theologians
     [/font]
    [/size]
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #2 on: August 08, 2019, 02:10:16 AM »
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  • #1 they think that Hell is an amorphous solid mass of horrific punishments



    Hell is not an amorphous solid mass of equal hell fire suffering for all, it has innumerable degrees of punishments,  Limbo of the infants is in Hell, and it is a type of natural paradise (Limbo of the Prophets was in Hell). A Caribbean island with crystal clear waters and cool breezes is a paradise, BUT, you also have hot sun, humidity, rains, mosquito's, rats, have to find food every day...…..

    The worst and deepest pits of hell are reserved for Judas and Catholics after him:

    From Mystical City of God , by Sister Mary of Agreda.

    537. Seeing him (Judas) thus beside himself Lucifer inspired him with the thought of hunting up the priests, returning to them the money and confessing his sin. This Judas hastened to do, and he loudly shouted at them those words: "I have sinned, betraying innocent blood!" (Mat. 27, 4). But they, not less hardened, answered that he should have seen to that before. The intention of the demon was to hinder the death of Christ if possible, for reasons already given and yet to be given (No. 419). This repulse of the priests, so full of impious cruelty, took away all hope from Judas and he persuaded himself that it was impossible to hinder the death of his Master. So thought also the demon, although later on he made more efforts to forestall it through Pilate. But as Judas could be of no more use to him for his purpose, he augmented his distress and despair, persuading him that in order to avoid severer punishments he must end his life. Judas yielded to this terrible deceit, and rushing forth from the city, hung himself on a dried-out fig tree (Mat. 27, 5). Thus he that was the murderer of his Creator, became also his own murderer. This happened on Friday at twelve o'clock, three hours before our Savior died. It was not becoming that his death and the consummation of our Redemption should coincide too closely with the execrable end of the traitorous disciple, who hated him with fiercest malice.

    538. The demons at once took possession of the soul of Judas and brought it down to hell. His entrails burst from the body hanging upon the tree (Acts 1, 18). All that saw this stupendous pimishment of the perfidious and malicious disciple for his treason, were filled with astonishment and dread. The body remained hanging by the neck for three days, exposed to the view of the public. During that time the Jews attempted to take it down f rom the tree and to bury it in secret, for it was a sight apt to cause great confusion to the pharisees and priests, who could not refute such a testimony of his wickedness. But no efforts of theirs sufficed to drag or separate the body from its position on the tree until three days had passed, when, according to the dispensation of divine justice, the demons themselves snatched the body from the tree and brought it to his soul, in order that both might suffer eternal punishment in the profoundest abyss of hell. Since what I have been made to know of the pains and chastisements of Judas, is worthy of fear-inspiring attention, I will according to command reveal what has been shown me concerning it. Among the obscure caverns of the infernal prisons was a very large one, arranged for more horrible chastisements than the others, and which was still unoccupied; for the demons had been unable to cast any soul into it, although their cruelty had induced them to attempt it many times from the time of Cain unto that day. All hell had remained astonished at the failure of these attempts, being entirely ignorant of the mystery, until the arrival of the soul of Judas, which they readily succeeded in hurling and burying in this prison never before occupied by any of the damned. The secret of it was, that this cavern of greater torments and fiercer fires of hell, from the creation of the world, had been destined for those, who, after having received Baptism, would damn themselves by the neglect of the Sacraments, the doctrines, the Passion and Death of the Savior, and the intercession of his most holy Mother. As Judas had been the first one who had so signally participated in these blessings, and as he had so fearfully misused them, he was also the first to suffer the torments of this place, prepared for him and his imitators and followers.

    539. This mystery I was commanded to reveal more particularly for a dreadful warning to all Christians, and especially to the priests, prelates and religious, who are accustomed to treat with more familiarity the body and blood of Christ our Lord, and who, by their office and state are his closer friends. In order to avoid blame I would like to find words and expressions sufficiently strong to make an impression on our unfeeling obduracy, so that we all may take a salutary warning and be filled with the fear of the punishments awaiting all bad Christians according to the station each one of us occupies. The demons torment Judas with inexpressible cruelty, because he persisted in the betrayal of his Master, by whose Passion and Death they were vanquished and despoiled of the possession of the world. The wrath which they had conceived against the Savior and his blessed Mother, they wreck, as far as is allowed them, on all those who imitate the traitorous disciple and who follow him in his contempt of the evangelical law, of the Sacraments and of the fruits of the Redemption. And in this the demons are but executing just punishment on those members of the mystical body of Christ, who have severed their connection with its head Christ, and who have voluntarily drifted away and delivered themselves over to the accursed hate and implacable fury of his enemies. As the instruments of divine justice they chastise the redeemed for their ingratitude toward their Redeemer. Let the children of the Church consider well this truth, for it cannot fail to move their hearts and induce them to evade such a lamentable fate.



     






    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #3 on: August 08, 2019, 02:16:41 AM »
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  • #2 they think that people are just born into a situation and God has to deal with them then.

    People are not born into a place and time by chance then God has to deal with them how best he can. They are put in exactly the time (B.C. to A.D., any century) and place that God has chosen for them from the beginning of time. It is the best time for them, chosen by God Himself who is perfectly merciful and just.


    Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circumstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circumstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]

     

     In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circumstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul.

     

     

    T

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #4 on: August 08, 2019, 02:31:43 AM »
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  • #3 they think that clear dogma has to be interpreted by theologians

    99% of those who say they believe in baptism of desire, actually believe that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, indeed any non-Catholic can be saved, Fr. Cekada states as such above, yet that is totally opposed to clear Catholic dogmas on EENS, I won't quote them all here (for now) except for one, The dogmatic Athanasian Creed, which states that to be saved, one must believe in the Incarnation (the Jesus Christ is God) and the Holy Trinity. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri, both taught baptism of desire of the catechumen, and are always quoted by BODers as their authority against the dogmas on EENS, following the Athanasian Creed both taught that baptism of desire required at a minimum, belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity, yet  99% of those who say they believe in baptism of desire, actually believe that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, indeed any non-Catholic can be saved without any belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity, or desire to be baptized, or desire to be a Catholic. Indeed, they even despise anything remotely Catholic.


    Athanasian Creed

    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;

    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

    42. and shall give account of their own works.

    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #5 on: August 08, 2019, 02:34:25 AM »
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  • Sorry for the large lettering, I was not able to correct those postings in time.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #6 on: August 08, 2019, 02:40:16 AM »
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  • Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how in reality they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy!
     
     
     Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
     “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches
    that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ[/b], unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” [/color](pagans and Jews can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)[/size]
     
     
     Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which [/size]nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a God that rewards)
     
     Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
     “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation
    nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a God that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)
     
     Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
     “… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a God that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it,  their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
     “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all
    to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a God that rewards)
     
     Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
     “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which
    no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” ( Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)
     
     Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true
    Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which
    no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which
    none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”
     
     Council of Trent, Session VI  (Jan. 13, 1547)
     Decree on Justification,
     Chapter IV.
     
     A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
     
     By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And
    this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire implicit desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)
     
     Chapter VII.
     
     What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
     
     This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
     
     Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father;
    the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
     Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439,
    ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
     Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
     On Baptism
     
     Canon 2.
    If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Canon 5. If any one saith, that
    baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943:
    “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is  belief in a god that rewards)
     
     Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
     way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
     Christians, and
    serves to differentiate them from those who
     have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
     consequently are not members of Christ
     orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
     have not received this consecration.” ( person who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)
     
     
     (Oh, I forgot, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above, invincible ignorance. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invinble ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #7 on: August 08, 2019, 02:49:35 AM »
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  • There is  NO SUCH THING as a 'Sede'... :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #8 on: August 08, 2019, 06:08:06 AM »
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  • The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

    Cekada refuses to believe in infallible Catholic dogma and prefers his own fallible insights. How is that different from the Conciliar Antipopes, he rejects? What's his problem with the Conciliar Costume Club, where they all do exactly the same?

    Probably, he shares the reason he gives for his rejection of Catholic dogma with most of the other impostors, who call themselves Catholics but reject infallibly defined dogma of the Church of Our Lord.

    Beware of costume clubs appropriating church vestments and rites.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #9 on: August 08, 2019, 07:28:30 AM »
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  • I believe Florence is ultimately referring to the formal heretic, and saying that even if he shed his blood for Christ, he'd still be damned.  Someone like a John Calvin, or a James White who's spent his life opposing the true Church of Jesus Christ, would be damned even if he went to the Muhammadeans with his false version of Christianity, and died for it.  I don't think Florence is ruling out the possibility that you could have a confused man who visibly identifies as Protestant, who's actually of good faith and is actually Catholic.  

    Augustine, for instance, says this in Letter 43 to the Donatists

    //[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]1. The[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Apostle Paul[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]has said:[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of himself.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Titus 3:10-11[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]parents[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]who had been misguided and had fallen into[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]error[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], and if they are with anxiety seeking the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]truth[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]heretics[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. Were it not that I[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]believe[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you. And yet even in the case of a[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]heretic[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], however puffed up with odious conceit, and insane through the obstinacy of his[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]wicked[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]resistance to[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]truth[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], although we warn others to avoid him, so that he may not deceive the weak and inexperienced, we do not refuse to strive by every means in our power for his correction. On this ground I wrote even to some of the chief of the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Donatists[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], not indeed letters of communion, which on account of their perversity they have long ceased to receive from the undivided[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Catholic[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Church[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]which is spread throughout the world, but letters of a private kind, such as we may send even to[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]pagans[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. These letters, however, though they have sometimes read them, they have not been willing, or perhaps it is more probable, have not been able, to answer. In these cases, it seems to me that I have discharged the obligation laid on me by that[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]love[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]which the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Holy Spirit[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]teaches us to render, not only to our own, but to all, saying by the apostle:[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]The Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]1 Thessalonians 3:12[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]In another place we are warned that those who are of a different opinion from us must be corrected with meekness,[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]2 Timothy 2:25-26
    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]2. I have said these things by way of preface, lest any one should think, because you are not of our communion, that I have been influenced by forwardness rather than consideration in sending this letter, and in desiring thus to confer with you regarding the welfare of the soul; though I believe that, if I were writing to you about an affair of property, or the settlement of some dispute about money, no one would find fault with me. So precious is this world in the esteem of men, and so small is the value which they set upon themselves! This letter, therefore, shall be a witness in my vindication at the bar of God, who knows the spirit in which I write, and who has said: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the sons of God. Matthew 5:9[/color]
    //

    While I realize Augustine isn't speaking dogmatically here, I don't see any evidence that the framework he presents here is heretical.

    I admit I'm less sure on the whole "God that rewards" thing.  I'm not convinced that some type of framework where that's *possible* necessarily contradicts the dogmas, but even if it doesn't, that doesn't mean that ever actually happens.  I mean, I'm not convinced God has completely closed that door, but I'm very, very skeptical.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #10 on: August 08, 2019, 07:36:44 AM »
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  • Did you mean to post the following?

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm


    Chapter 1
    1. The Apostle Paul has said: A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:10-11 But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you. And yet even in the case of a heretic, however puffed up with odious conceit, and insane through the obstinacy of his wicked resistance to truth, although we warn others to avoid him, so that he may not deceive the weak and inexperienced, we do not refuse to strive by every means in our power for his correction. On this ground I wrote even to some of the chief of the Donatists, not indeed letters of communion, which on account of their perversity they have long ceased to receive from the undivided Catholic Church which is spread throughout the world, but letters of a private kind, such as we may send even to pagans. These letters, however, though they have sometimes read them, they have not been willing, or perhaps it is more probable, have not been able, to answer. In these cases, it seems to me that I have discharged the obligation laid on me by that love which the Holy Spirit teaches us to render, not only to our own, but to all, saying by the apostle: The Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men. 1 Thessalonians 3:12 In another place we are warned that those who are of a different opinion from us must be corrected with meekness, if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy 2:25-26
    2. I have said these things by way of preface, lest any one should think, because you are not of our communion, that I have been influenced by forwardness rather than consideration in sending this letter, and in desiring thus to confer with you regarding the welfare of the soul; though I believe that, if I were writing to you about an affair of property, or the settlement of some dispute about money, no one would find fault with me. So precious is this world in the esteem of men, and so small is the value which they set upon themselves! This letter, therefore, shall be a witness in my vindication at the bar of God, who knows the spirit in which I write, and who has said: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the sons of God. Matthew 5:9
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #11 on: August 08, 2019, 08:24:34 AM »
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    I don't think Florence is ruling out the possibility that you could have a confused man who visibly identifies as Protestant, who's actually of good faith and is actually Catholic.  
    You cannot be a protestant and a catholic at the same time.  Either you believe that Christ gives us His body and blood in the Eucharist, which is necessary for salvation, or you do not.  Either you believe that you must submit to the Church and the pope to be saved, or you do not.  Either you believe that Our Lady was born spotless from sin, and remained so for Her entire life, and was Assumed into Heaven as Queen, or you do not.
    .
    A confused protestant may not be guilty of heresy (for a time) but they are not a catholic, since they identify with heresy.  Confusion, like ignorance, is a punishment for sin.  If that person has good will and strives for natural goodness, God will remove his confusion and send him the truths of the Faith.  I say that the protestant is not guilty "for a time" because if he stays in his confusion and does not seek truth, he is guilty of spiritual sloth and God will not bless him with the truths which he lazily did not seek.  We cannot say, per Church doctrine, that a confused protestant can be saved.  We can only say that this person, IF HE BECOMES A CATHOLIC, and rejects his protestant errors, can be saved.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #12 on: August 08, 2019, 11:26:56 AM »
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  • Did you mean to post the following?

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm


    Chapter 1
    1. The Apostle Paul has said: A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:10-11 But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you. And yet even in the case of a heretic, however puffed up with odious conceit, and insane through the obstinacy of his wicked resistance to truth, although we warn others to avoid him, so that he may not deceive the weak and inexperienced, we do not refuse to strive by every means in our power for his correction. On this ground I wrote even to some of the chief of the Donatists, not indeed letters of communion, which on account of their perversity they have long ceased to receive from the undivided Catholic Church which is spread throughout the world, but letters of a private kind, such as we may send even to pagans. These letters, however, though they have sometimes read them, they have not been willing, or perhaps it is more probable, have not been able, to answer. In these cases, it seems to me that I have discharged the obligation laid on me by that love which the Holy Spirit teaches us to render, not only to our own, but to all, saying by the apostle: The Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men. 1 Thessalonians 3:12 In another place we are warned that those who are of a different opinion from us must be corrected with meekness, if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy 2:25-26
    2. I have said these things by way of preface, lest any one should think, because you are not of our communion, that I have been influenced by forwardness rather than consideration in sending this letter, and in desiring thus to confer with you regarding the welfare of the soul; though I believe that, if I were writing to you about an affair of property, or the settlement of some dispute about money, no one would find fault with me. So precious is this world in the esteem of men, and so small is the value which they set upon themselves! This letter, therefore, shall be a witness in my vindication at the bar of God, who knows the spirit in which I write, and who has said: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the sons of God. Matthew 5:9
    Yes, that's right. Thank you.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #13 on: August 08, 2019, 11:27:50 AM »
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  • You cannot be a protestant and a catholic at the same time.  Either you believe that Christ gives us His body and blood in the Eucharist, which is necessary for salvation, or you do not.  Either you believe that you must submit to the Church and the pope to be saved, or you do not.  Either you believe that Our Lady was born spotless from sin, and remained so for Her entire life, and was Assumed into Heaven as Queen, or you do not.
    .
    A confused protestant may not be guilty of heresy (for a time) but they are not a catholic, since they identify with heresy.  Confusion, like ignorance, is a punishment for sin.  If that person has good will and strives for natural goodness, God will remove his confusion and send him the truths of the Faith.  I say that the protestant is not guilty "for a time" because if he stays in his confusion and does not seek truth, he is guilty of spiritual sloth and God will not bless him with the truths which he lazily did not seek.  We cannot say, per Church doctrine, that a confused protestant can be saved.  We can only say that this person, IF HE BECOMES A CATHOLIC, and rejects his protestant errors, can be saved.
    I was purposely precise.  "visibly identified as Protestant."  He thinks he's Protestant.

    Obstinately denying any of the above is damnable.  Since we can't know for sure that someone is in good faith, we should pray for the salvation of all Protestants, and assume that they are not safe where they are.  Anything else would be irresponsible. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #14 on: August 08, 2019, 12:04:30 PM »
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    Obstinately denying any of the above is damnable.  Since we can't know for sure that someone is in good faith, we should pray for the salvation of all Protestants, and assume that they are not safe where they are.
    One who identifies as Protestant denies the above doctrines, by definition.  They cannot be saved as a Protestant, no matter their good will.  How do you define "good will" anyway?  They can only be saved if they ACTIVELY reject their heresies, their protestant religion and become catholic.  Salvation is not in the mind.  Being a catholic is not a mental state.  Christ told us to (actively) do good and avoid evil.  We must EAT His Flesh and DRINK His blood to be saved; we cannot just believe.  To become a catholic is to act to join the Faith.  "Good will" is a mental first step, but it requires the fulfillment of the desire for Truth.  "Good will" does not supply the sacraments; it does not supply membership in the Church; it cannot supply heaven.

     

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