Author Topic: Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS (Read 16477 times)

twiceborn · « **Reply #10 on:** September 08, 2010, 02:55:47 PM »

Quote from: Belloc

since I was baptized, then, I am one of the predestined few......whew, been struggling a long time with that stateo f grace thing, good to know, dont have to worry about that now....since Augustine is the lone authority and all on that...

Not really, both the predestined and the reprobte can be baptized, receive sufficient and efficacious grace, partake of the sacraments and even do a great deal of supernatural good. Both can also come to genuine faith. Just because you are baptized it does not means that you are one of the predestined.

The difference lies on the gift of final perseverance, which is given only to the predestined. To the reprobate it is not given.

I didn't say St. Augustine is the lone authority, but as the Doctor of Grace, he holds a very high authority on these matters as well in matters of faith and morals in general.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #11 on:** September 08, 2010, 03:27:40 PM »

I don't conclude that the Catholic Encyclopedia is wrong here because I believe Feeneyism is right. (I don't) It's wrong because it is practically taking for granted the salvation of many categories of people as though such an opinion could be easily harmonized with Catholic teaching.

Catholics must teach that it is necessary to join the Catholic Church to be saved.

We are not then entitled to conclude from that, that all the unbaptized are reprobate. To come to such a conclusion is to come close to making a mockery of Divine Justice.

Matto · « **Reply #12 on:** September 08, 2010, 04:43:24 PM »

twiceborn · « **Reply #13 on:** September 08, 2010, 04:52:34 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

We are not then entitled to conclude from that, that all the unbaptized are reprobate. To come to such a conclusion is to come close to making a mockery of Divine Justice.

In light of the Church's teaching that there is not salvation outside her and that baptism is necessary for salvation, how would it be a mockery anymore than those teachings themselves would be?

The Church says also in one of her councils that the Sacraments received outside of her are of no profit unless the person joins her before he dies. I'll try and find the quote later today.

In light of the above and The Church's teaching on predestination, it seems to me rather straighforward to conclude that all the predestinate will not only be baptized but die in a state of grace and in communion with The Church.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #14 on:** September 08, 2010, 05:55:17 PM »

Quote from: twiceborn

In light of the above and The Church's teaching on predestination, it seems to me rather straighforward to conclude that all the predestinate will not only be baptized but die in a state of grace and in communion with The Church.

Except the Church doesn't teach that.