Author Topic: Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS (Read 16560 times)

Vladimir · « **Reply #5 on:** September 07, 2010, 05:02:06 PM »

Innocenza, Telesphorus

Thank you for the warning. I had already gathered from the site that it was not a "Catholic" site, and the information that I take from it ought to be examined closely. I'm uninterested in the majority of the information there, I'm merely looking into the Jansenist controversy (as part of my growing interest in Pascal) and that really is the best site for that particular area of history.

Telesphorus,

Thank you for your answer. I began to have my suspicions about the authority of the Catholic Encylopedia when I read the critique of so-called "rigorism" (in regards to the number of the saved) and the inclusion of non-Catholic religions in salvation; I will have to ask a priest about this when I have the chance.

Matto,

There have been numerous discussions about Cantate Domino and salvation issues on this site that are worth perusing.

twiceborn · « **Reply #6 on:** September 08, 2010, 07:19:01 AM »

Quote from: Matto

1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
"The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans."

Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church.

I think it is nonsense, I'll take the words of St. Augustine on this (that none of the predestined will die without baptism) over the claims of the CE.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #7 on:** September 08, 2010, 09:48:33 AM »

Quote

Quote
Matto said:
1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
"The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans."

Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church.

Quote
twiceborn said:

I think it is nonsense, I'll take the words of St. Augustine on this (that none of the predestined will die without baptism) over the claims of the CE.

I agree that it is nonsense. I am loth to use that word, "heretical" - though I'm not saying it's not. I do not think it is accurate, or speaks the truth of the faith.

I just want to point out that there is a lot implicated in coming to the conclusion that the CE is "wrong." Such as . . . am I wrong? I don't think so, but we must tread with some caution here, and due humility. Having said that . . . so far I agree with all of you on this.

The other reflection I want to point out is that, if we are right - it gives one something to think about in the battle against "modernism" and the "spirit of Vatican II." That "spirit" was around for quite some time before the council. Not sure what to make of that, but it's something to think about - it is part of the matrix or the context in which the consideration of these things must occur.

DR

Belloc · « **Reply #8 on:** September 08, 2010, 01:35:50 PM »

Quote from: twiceborn

Quote from: Matto
1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
"The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans."

Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church.

I think it is nonsense, I'll take the words of St. Augustine on this (that none of the predestined will die without baptism) over the claims of the CE.

since I was baptized, then, I am one of the predestined few......whew, been struggling a long time with that stateo f grace thing, good to know, dont have to worry about that now....since Augustine is the lone authority and all on that...

Matto · « **Reply #9 on:** September 08, 2010, 01:48:14 PM »

Um, are you misreading something? Nobody said that all of the baptized will be saved, especially not Saint Augustine.