Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 122767 times)

0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline WorldsAway

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1398
  • Reputation: +910/-129
  • Gender: Male
Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #135 on: December 10, 2025, 09:44:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, God provided the "the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace" and the invincibly ignorant person cooperated with that divine grace until he died. Why can't you understand this?

    You are denying that Pius IX taught that "invincible ignorance" slightly modifies the original understanding of EENS. This is a valid development of the dogma. Anyone can look that up very quickly and see that your "interpretation" is bogus.
    A "development of the dogma" which modifies the Dogma in such a way that the Dogma no longer teaches what it originally taught is not "valid", it is "heretical". We are to believe the Dogma as the Church "has once declared". What the Church "once declared" (at least 8 times, actually) is that there is no salvation Outside of Her and outside of the Catholic Faith 

    Fortunately, Pius IX didn't do that
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13212
    • Reputation: +8327/-2574
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #136 on: December 10, 2025, 09:44:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
    The ignorant who follow the natural law go to Limbo.  They do not gain heaven.  The invincibly ignorant are not saved.  But they are also not damned.  That’s what Limbo is - a middle state. 


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 629
    • Reputation: +62/-25
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #137 on: December 10, 2025, 09:48:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The ignorant who follow the natural law go to Limbo.  They do not gain heaven.  The invincibly ignorant are not saved.  But they are also not damned.  That’s what Limbo is - a middle state.
    If you are claiming that is the Church's teaching can you please provide a source?

    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1398
    • Reputation: +910/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #138 on: December 10, 2025, 09:49:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ah, so your new angle is that Pius IX was not speaking ex Cathedra, so we should ignore what he said. What do the theologians say about the matter?

    And I'm still waiting for you to answer my question. Where do the "invincibly ignorant" go immediately after they die?
    Well, I did modify my post, but you must have already been replying 

    Ignore what he says? No, because he said nothing contrary to the Faith. But a letter to the Italian hierarchy does not fall under the realm of infallibility.

    I already answered your question with what Pius IX taught. He taught they will be afforded the means to attain salvation 

    However, I think it is possible there is a "limbo" of sorts in Hell for them, if they were not afforded the means to attain salvation 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #139 on: December 10, 2025, 09:52:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The ignorant who follow the natural law go to Limbo.  They do not gain heaven.  The invincibly ignorant are not saved.  But they are also not damned.  That’s what Limbo is - a middle state.

    Which is exactly what I suggested in my first post on this topic. They are in a similar state that the "Fathers" were before Christ came. They did not yet know Christ because they were invincibly ignorant of him. They only understood him though the shadows of the OT Scriptures.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13212
    • Reputation: +8327/-2574
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #140 on: December 10, 2025, 09:58:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not comparable.  The OT fathers went to the Limbo of the Just.  They weren’t invincibly ignorant of Divine Law because they had the OT rites. 

    A native Indian who is invincibly ignorant in the New Testament (or even the OT) would go to limbo, as part of hell.  But it’s a natural paradise with no suffering.  

    The OT limbo of the just, was a temporary place for those who had Faith in the redeemer, and they were eventually baptized and made heaven. The limbo of the just no longer exists.  As the OT is over.  

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #141 on: December 10, 2025, 09:58:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If you are claiming that is the Church's teaching can you please provide a source?

    The Church has been officially silent on the matter as far as I know. But Aquinas mentions the concept in passing saying "nothing prevents Abraham's Bosom from remaining after Christ's coming." So it is not heretical to suggest it. I think it would be the most fitting abode for the "invincibly ignorant" until Christ's Second Coming, as Abraham's Bosom performed a very similar function prior to Christ's Resurrection. 

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q69.A4.C.3

    "Accordingly, before Christ’s coming the limbo of hell and Abraham’s bosom were one place accidentally and not essentially: and consequently, nothing prevents Abraham’s bosom from remaining after Christ’s coming and from being altogether distinct from limbo, since things that are one accidentally may be parted from one another." 

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #142 on: December 10, 2025, 10:02:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not comparable.  The OT fathers went to the Limbo of the Just.  They weren’t invincibly ignorant of Divine Law because they had the OT rites.

    A native Indian who is invincibly ignorant in the New Testament (or even the OT) would go to limbo, as part of hell.  But it’s a natural paradise with no suffering. 

    The OT limbo of the just, was a temporary place for those who had Faith in the redeemer, and they were eventually baptized and made heaven. The limbo of the just no longer exists.  As the OT is over. 

    The "Limbo the Fathers" was also called "Abraham's Bosom." It held people, like Abraham, who came before the divine law was given to Moses. It is exactly comparable to the pagans who do not have knowledge of the divine law but do have the natural law enlightened by divine grace.


    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1398
    • Reputation: +910/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #143 on: December 10, 2025, 10:05:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Which is exactly what I suggested in my first post on this topic. They are in a similar state that the "Fathers" were before Christ came. They did not yet know Christ because they were invincibly ignorant of him. They only understood him though the shadows of the OT Scriptures.
    Well, not quite. You didn't just suggest a "limbo", you said this:

    Quote
    What you say is absolutely true for "salvation," which means going straight to Heaven without a stop in any other abode after death. No one, who is not a baptized member of the Church has the chance "to benefit from the ecclesiastical sacraments and fasting, almsgiving and other offices of piety and exercises of the Christian soldiery that bring forth eternal rewards." These things prepare the white garment of the soul. And they are only available to Catholics. 
    However, not all who are outside the Church will burn in Hell forever and never make it to Paradise. In fact, even most Catholics will suffer "the fires of Hell" in Purgatory for a long time before entering Paradise. 
    The point is that there are other temporary places for those non-saved souls are "detained," and we shouldn't lose sight of that fact. Aquinas speaks of five places:

    This is what is heretical, because the Dogma "as once declared" (~8 times) is there is no salvation outside the Church or the Faith. No salvation meaning just that. As declared, no salvation.

    You say, "not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever and never make it to paradise".

    Pope Eugene IV says, "all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"

    See the contradiction?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13212
    • Reputation: +8327/-2574
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #144 on: December 10, 2025, 10:15:27 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The "Limbo the Fathers" was also called "Abraham's Bosom." It held people, like Abraham, who came before the divine law was given to Moses. It is exactly comparable to the pagans who do not have knowledge of the divine law but do have the natural law enlightened by divine grace.
    Abraham was NOT A PAGAN! !!!  God promised to send the Redeemer to Adam and Eve.  Belief in the Redeemer was part of the OT religion.  Abraham  believed in the coming redeemer.  Pagans did not.  

    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1398
    • Reputation: +910/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #145 on: December 10, 2025, 10:22:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You say, "not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever and never make it to paradise".

    Pope Eugene IV says, "all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"

    See the contradiction?
    Also, this is the most explicit, word-for-word denial of the Dogma that I have ever seen from someone claiming to be Catholic. And that is saying something

    Angelus is literally saying the exact opposite of what has been defined.

    Pope Eugene IV: all those who are outside the Church...will go into the everlasting fire

    Angelus: not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever

    Pope Eugene IV: all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life

    Angelus: not all who are outside the Church...will never make it to heaven

    I mean, c'mon man


    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #146 on: December 10, 2025, 10:30:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, not quite. You didn't just suggest a "limbo", you said this:

    This is what is heretical, because the Dogma "as once declared" (~8 times) is there is no salvation outside the Church or the Faith. No salvation meaning just that. As declared, no salvation.

    You say, "not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever and never make it to paradise".

    Pope Eugene IV says, "all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"

    See the contradiction?

    No, there is no contradiction. Because as Pius IX says those with "invincible ignorance about our most holy religion...are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." And God's "supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

    It is not heretical for me to say it, just as it was not heretical for Pius IX to say it.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #147 on: December 10, 2025, 10:32:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also, this is the most explicit, word-for-word denial of the Dogma that I have ever seen from someone claiming to be Catholic. And that is saying something

    Angelus is literally saying the exact opposite of what has been defined.

    Pope Eugene IV: all those who are outside the Church...will go into the everlasting fire

    Angelus: not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever

    Pope Eugene IV: all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life

    Angelus: not all who are outside the Church...will never make it to heaven

    I mean, c'mon man

    Again, you could replace the word Angelus above, with Pius IX. Are you saying that he denied the dogma?

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #148 on: December 10, 2025, 10:38:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Abraham was NOT A PAGAN! !!!  God promised to send the Redeemer to Adam and Eve.  Belief in the Redeemer was part of the OT religion.  Abraham  believed in the coming redeemer.  Pagans did not. 

    Abraham lived prior to the revelation of the divine law, given to Moses. He and people of the Age of the Patriarchs (aka Fathers) lived according to the natural law illumined by the divine grace. The pagans who are/were "invincibly ignorant of our holy religion," the Catholic faith, AND also live/lived according to the natural law illumined the divine grace.

    As Pius IX said, "Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency does not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments." 

    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1398
    • Reputation: +910/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #149 on: December 10, 2025, 10:43:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Again, you could replace the word Angelus above, with Pius IX. Are you saying that he denied the dogma?
    Angelus, you make Pius IX into a heretic by claiming he taught what he did not actually teach. What you claim he teaches contradicts Church Dogma as it has "once been declared" (again, ~8 times). So, please, stop. 
    Read what the Church has infallibly taught regarding salvation first, and then apply it to what Pius IX taught. You will not misintepret him that way. You are going in the opposite order, taking your misinterpretation of Pius IX and applying it to Church Dogma. That is what leads to what you originally posted in this thread, which was a word-for-word denial of the Dogma. Please, read what has infallibly been taught regarding EENS. We must keep the faith "whole and undefiled" or we will, without doubt, perish eternally 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.