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Author Topic: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance  (Read 7745 times)

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Offline Mithrandylan

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Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2022, 01:07:07 PM »
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  • My understanding of your point is that theologians are the authoritative interpreters of Church docuмents and that neither they nor the pope are bound by any other rule of faith than whatever the pope approves.  But St Paul, Vatican I, Pope Paul IV, and many others say that there is a rule of faith that transcends the decisions of the man who claims to be pope.  And it was that rule of faith by which sedes judged the Novus Ordo "popes" to be imposters.  If there isn't a rule of faith that both the pope and the theologians are bound by, then Vatican 2 is an acceptable development of Church doctrine.  If there is a rule of faith that both popes and theologians are bound by then so-called Feeneyites can't be faulted for comparing the teaching of theologians to the literal meaning of Church dogmas and objecting when they find contradictions.
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    My point was much narrower than that; I was simply pointing out that the Vatican I excerpt provided by Stubborn does not support his claim that the dogmatic declarations of ecuмenical councils are to only be understood according to whatever their literal or plain meaning is. I was not even arguing that the idea was wrong (although I think it is), I was merely arguing that the idea is not supported by Vatican I. 
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    I am not sure I follow what you are saying about the rule of faith. The rule of faith (the term itself, I mean) is a guide for right belief, and it is the believing Church in particular who is subject to it. The teaching Church, qua teaching Church, does not have a rule of faith-- it, instead, is protected by infallibility as long as their is a living pope.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #46 on: November 07, 2022, 02:13:53 PM »
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  • .
    My point was much narrower than that; I was simply pointing out that the Vatican I excerpt provided by Stubborn does not support his claim that the dogmatic declarations of ecuмenical councils are to only be understood according to whatever their literal or plain meaning is. I was not even arguing that the idea was wrong (although I think it is), I was merely arguing that the idea is not supported by Vatican I.
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    I am not sure I follow what you are saying about the rule of faith. The rule of faith (the term itself, I mean) is a guide for right belief, and it is the believing Church in particular who is subject to it. The teaching Church, qua teaching Church, does not have a rule of faith-- it, instead, is protected by infallibility as long as their is a living pope.
    Well I know you are not trying to say that the teaching Church is not part of the believing Church, right?  So if the pope and the theologians are also part of the believing Church then they are likewise bound by the rule of faith.  That's how we can reject a papal claimant.  He isn't part of the teaching Church because he isn't part of the believing Church.  A non-believer is not protected by infallibility even if he falsely claims to be part of the teaching Church.  We can compare what papal claimants and theologians are teaching to the rule of faith which has been clearly taught by true popes and we can see if it contradicts anything we already know to be part of the deposit of the faith.  If it does, and the claimant makes it clear that he is rejecting what he knows to be the Church's doctrine, then we must conclude that he is not part of the believing Church and therefore neither is he part of the teaching Church.  But even if it is not clear that someone is knowingly rejecting Church doctrine, there is no obligation to accept obvious contradictions of the rule of faith.  Infallibility doesn't extend to every statement issued by a member of the hierarchy/clergy.  If something appears to contradict a dogma, the onus is on the person making the statement to explain how it doesn't contradict dogma.  This isn't a case of competing interpretations.  It's a matter of accepting dogmas at face value.  In every controversial case, the interpretations always contradict the literal meaning of the dogma.  If they didn't, there would be no controversy.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #47 on: November 07, 2022, 02:46:42 PM »
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  • Well I know you are not trying to say that the teaching Church is not part of the believing Church, right?  So if the pope and the theologians are also part of the believing Church then they are likewise bound by the rule of faith.  That's how we can reject a papal claimant.  He isn't part of the teaching Church because he isn't part of the believing Church.  A non-believer is not protected by infallibility even if he falsely claims to be part of the teaching Church.  We can compare what papal claimants and theologians are teaching to the rule of faith which has been clearly taught by true popes and we can see if it contradicts anything we already know to be part of the deposit of the faith.  If it does, and the claimant makes it clear that he is rejecting what he knows to be the Church's doctrine, then we must conclude that he is not part of the believing Church and therefore neither is he part of the teaching Church.
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    I agree with all this.
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      But even if it is not clear that someone is knowingly rejecting Church doctrine, there is no obligation to accept obvious contradictions of the rule of faith.  Infallibility doesn't extend to every statement issued by a member of the hierarchy/clergy.  If something appears to contradict a dogma, the onus is on the person making the statement to explain how it doesn't contradict dogma.  This isn't a case of competing interpretations.  It's a matter of accepting dogmas at face value.  In every controversial case, the interpretations always contradict the literal meaning of the dogma.  If they didn't, there would be no controversy.


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    I don't agree with all of this.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #48 on: May 19, 2025, 06:22:32 AM »
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  • Great.  That's a step in the right direction.  He does stop a bit short of affirming, however, that he believes in that position, or believes that the "Rewarder God" theory is unacceptable and untenable.  But not a few Traditional Catholics hold that you're basically a "Feeneyite heretic" if you say that infidels, Jews, pagans, etc. cannot be saved.
    Introibo blog called me a “feeneyite heretic” when I told him invincible ignorance wouldn’t apply to those in false sects 

    Offline Vanguard

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #49 on: May 19, 2025, 07:49:12 AM »
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  • From Stubborn:
    Clear teachings get misunderstood due to people misunderstanding what is being taught, not because what is being taught is not clear - preconceived notions might be the biggest culprit. By that I mean people take their mindset to these teachings and they see in these various teachings what they already believe. And what they do not believe, they do not see, or refuse to see, not sure which.

    This is exactly like the alien/evolution question. As Fr. Ripperger said in his talk, formation is key. The formation given to people impacts their ability to judge the validity of other controversies. People develop intellectual habits which affect their judgments and reasoning process. If you introduce something dissonant to these habits, people can judge it as false.  
    As time passes and people are formed by evolved doctrine, they become less able to detect falsities. That’s why so many people believe in religious liberty, evolution, aliens and BOD in my opinion. 


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #50 on: May 19, 2025, 09:49:03 AM »
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  • Great.  That's a step in the right direction.  He does stop a bit short of affirming, however, that he believes in that position, or believes that the "Rewarder God" theory is unacceptable and untenable.  But not a few Traditional Catholics hold that you're basically a "Feeneyite heretic" if you say that infidels, Jews, pagans, etc. cannot be saved.
    I’m not gonna dig it up but several years ago I asked him about this and I remember him saying he can’t condemn Fr Cekadas position as heretical but that he does believe it’s incorrect.  Posting this because I saw multiple people ask about it on this thread 

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #51 on: May 19, 2025, 06:04:24 PM »
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  • From Stubborn:
    Clear teachings get misunderstood due to people misunderstanding what is being taught, not because what is being taught is not clear - preconceived notions might be the biggest culprit. By that I mean people take their mindset to these teachings and they see in these various teachings what they already believe. And what they do not believe, they do not see, or refuse to see, not sure which.

    This is exactly like the alien/evolution question. As Fr. Ripperger said in his talk, formation is key. The formation given to people impacts their ability to judge the validity of other controversies. People develop intellectual habits which affect their judgments and reasoning process. If you introduce something dissonant to these habits, people can judge it as false. 
    As time passes and people are formed by evolved doctrine, they become less able to detect falsities. That’s why so many people believe in religious liberty, evolution, aliens and BOD in my opinion.
    Layman ripperger.