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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 120362 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2025, 09:06:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on December 10, 2025, 07:48:49 AM
    Again, this denies the Dogma. The Church teaches that heretics and schismatics are outside the Church. The Church teaches that there is no remission of sins outside the Church.

    If someone's sins are remitted, that means they are inside the Church. It means that they are not heretics or schismatics, because heretics and schismatics are not inside the Church

    A heretic or schismatic must cease to be a heretic or schismatic in order to receive remission of sins

    You seem intent on misunderstanding my meaning. The heretics and schismatics that we are talking about are outside of the Church prior to their confession. They then confess, with perfect contrition, directly to God. They make no contact with a Catholic priest and do not rejoin the Catholic Church in any formal, visible way. They then die immediately after this.

    When those people repent of ALL of their sins, including their sins against the faith, the guilt for those sins is washed away. This means they are "justified" in the eyes of God. However, they still have the temporal debt to pay for those sins. If they die immediately after this direct confession to God, they are not going to eternal Hell.

    As I asked you earlier and you did not answer me, where do they go?
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #61 on: December 10, 2025, 09:14:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 10, 2025, 12:42:05 AM
    I get more and more dicouraged by what an extreme cesspool of error the entire world and even the entire Tradosphere has become, where 99% of Trads deny the dogma that there's no salvation outisde the Church, half of Trads deny the indefectibilty of the Church in her universal Magisterium and universal discipline, especially the Mass, where people go from one horrible non-Catholic opinion to another, like "lesser evil" and "end justifies the means" having become legitimate Catholic moral principles.  I never thought I would live to see the day when the majority of those who self-identy as Trads (because they like chant, incense, and bells?) voted for a pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, pro-genocide, pro-Jєωιѕн, pro-unjust-war candidate for President, who's also a serial adulterer, a moral degenerate, and likely child rapist ... but many even claimed that Catholics have a positive obligation to vote for him.  Not only that, but most of them were celebrating, practically popping champagne corks, after Trump's victory ...  thereby celebrating and reveling in evil, rather than at least thinking, with heavy hearts, that it was the best choice available (not that it would justify the choice, but at the very least it would render it no cause for celebration).  Bishop Sanborn at least admitted that he is "Pro Abortion" and that one is not obliged to vote for him, but he was in the minority even on that, and he did not go far enough, by holding that one was permitted to vote for an evil candidate, i.e. that the end (keeping Biden out of office) justifies the means (voting for Trump).  I'm not sure how the Trads who voted Trump can sleep at night, having the blood of innocents all over their hands.

    We will be punished as a nation for voting into office such a wicked President, with such evil policies ... and the punishment will be coming very soon.
    I just need a little clarity.

    Baptism brings people into the church.  Correct?  It doesn't even have to be a baptism done by a Catholic.  It just needs form and matter and intent. Correct?

    Heresy and schism separates people from the church. Correct? Do they need to be baptized to be in heresy or schism?  If yes, then these people can return to the church with perfect contrition, if they do not have access to the correct path to return to the Church.  

    All other people are pagans or atheists.  Correct?  These people can not be saved because they are outside the Church.  Correct?

    Do people just get confused with the terminology and this is why there is controversy on the topic?

    And even though EENS is declared dogma of the church, would God make exceptions? I am thinking no. I mean God can do anything he wants.  But if God did do something that appeared to be an exception, maybe something happened that people did not see, so God did not contradict His own teaching. But we can only base things on what we see and not what is unseen and private between the person and God.

    My conclusion is that people should just live in the strict sense of EENS and try to convert everyone they can.  If they are afraid of speaking Truth then maybe they need to reexamine that maybe they are focused on human respect.  If a person doesn't feel up to the task of explaining EENS to someone then they should not try and just direct the person to a Priest (Who will hopefully speak Truth.)
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #62 on: December 10, 2025, 09:21:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 09, 2025, 05:39:43 PM
    What you say is absolutely true for "salvation," which means going straight to Heaven without a stop in any other abode after death. 
    That's not what salvation means.  Salvation means going to heaven - either directly or thru Purgatory.  If you are "saved" it means you get to heaven.


    Quote
    However, not all who are outside the Church will burn in Hell forever and never make it to Paradise.
    Heresy.  Yes, they will. 

    Quote
    In fact, even most Catholics will suffer "the fires of Hell" in Purgatory for a long time before entering Paradise.
    Heresy.  Purgatory may be part of hell, but it is temporary.  Only catholics go to Purgatory.  Hell is eternal.

    Quote
    The point is that there are other temporary places for those non-saved souls are "detained," and we shouldn't lose sight of that fact. Aquinas speaks of five places:
    Heresy.  Everything St Thomas describes is attributed to Catholics only.


    When a person dies, they either go to Heaven or Hell.  Purgatory is part of the path to heaven.  Only catholics go to purgatory/heaven.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #63 on: December 10, 2025, 09:23:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 09, 2025, 06:11:16 PM
    I might actually have to copy and save out these last few posts just to illustrate how desperate and insane the anti-EENS people are.
    It is a form of insanity. 

    Angelus, I don't know where you went to catholic school or who taught you catechism class, but you need to get back to basics and read the ORIGINAL baltimore catechism.  Your grasp of catholic concepts is way off.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #64 on: December 10, 2025, 09:24:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on December 10, 2025, 07:48:49 AM
    Again, this denies the Dogma. The Church teaches that heretics and schismatics are outside the Church. The Church teaches that there is no remission of sins outside the Church.

    If someone's sins are remitted, that means they are inside the Church. It means that they are not heretics or schismatics, because heretics and schismatics are not inside the Church

    A heretic or schismatic must cease to be a heretic or schismatic in order to receive remission of sins

    This is from Gemini. Quotes are from Trent. The theology is fully Roman Catholic.

    Can a baptized person who is a heretic and outside of the church confess to God directly with perfect contrition if he does not have access to the sacrament?

    This question touches on the necessity of the Sacraments, the limits of the Church's visible jurisdiction, and the boundless nature of God's mercy—all central themes addressed by the Council of Trent and subsequent Catholic teaching.

    The short answer, according to Catholic teaching, is Yes, a person can be reconciled to God in this way, but it requires the desire for full communion with the Church and her Sacraments.

    Here is a breakdown of the core elements:

    1. The Power of Perfect Contrition

    The Council of Trent, in Session XIV, Chapter 4, on Contrition, explicitly teaches that Perfect Contrition (sorrow for sin arising from a perfect love of God, or charity) has the power to reconcile a person to God and restore sanctifying grace before receiving the Sacrament of Penance.

    Quote
    Quote "...although it sometimes happens that this contrition is perfect through charity, and reconciles man with God before this sacrament is actually received, still this reconciliation is not to be ascribed to that contrition, independently of the desire of the sacrament, which is included therein."

    This principle applies universally: God is not limited by His own Sacraments. If a person, even a heretic or schismatic, makes an act of Perfect Contrition—detesting sin because it offends God—and truly desires to do everything necessary for salvation, their sins are forgiven immediately.

    2. The Requirement of Votum Ecclesiae (Desire for the Church)

    The crucial caveat for the heretic or person "outside of the Church" is the "desire of the sacrament" mentioned above. In this context, that desire must implicitly or explicitly extend to the desire for the Church itself, which is the universal sacrament of salvation and the institution where the Sacrament of Penance resides.

    • For the Baptized Heretic: A heretic is still bound by the laws of the Church through their valid Baptism, even though they have incurred automatic excommunication (latae sententiae) by the act of obstinately denying a defined Catholic truth (Canon 1364).
    • Reconciliation: For the perfect contrition to be efficacious, the person's sorrow for sin must involve a desire to return to the unity of the Church (the votum Ecclesiae or "desire for the Church") and to submit to the means of reconciliation Christ established (i.e., the Sacrament of Penance), even if circuмstances physically prevent its reception.
    • "No Access to the Sacrament": Since a heretic, by definition, is separated from the visible Church structure and its authority, true Perfect Contrition in this case must involve repenting of the heresy itself and desiring to confess (at least generally) all mortal sins, including the sin of heresy/schism, to a priest if access were available.

    Conclusion

    The Church holds that God's grace and mercy are accessible to all people of good will. A baptized person, regardless of their current visible relationship with the Church, who is in a situation of physical or moral impossibility to receive the Sacrament of Penance, can be restored to justification immediately through an act of Perfect Contrition (contritio caritate perfecta), provided that contrition includes the will to submit to the keys of the Church and receive the Sacrament of Penance once it becomes physically possible.


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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #65 on: December 10, 2025, 09:32:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 09, 2025, 09:47:25 PM
    Some of the people who are "outside of the Church" can repent of all of their sins, even if they are not members of the Catholic Church at the time of their repentance. For example, heretics and schismatics.

    To do so, they must at least repent directly to God in prayer with perfect contrition. This does not make them members of the Catholic Church in the normal sense, but it does cleanse their soul of the guilt for their sins. After they do this, they become friends of God.
    So you're saying a baptized, heretic is on his deathbed and repents of his heresy?  If that's the case, then yes, he *could* be reconciled to the Church and become a member again.  I say *could* because (in this hypothetical case) he didn't confess his heresy to a priest but only repented in his heart.

    The error/confusion is your statement that such a repentant heretic wouldn't be a member of the church.  Yes, they would.  They are already baptized, they are already members.  Their heresy makes them outside of the church.  If they repented, they would be members again.  So, yes, they could be saved.

    But...let's make this clear....this would only apply to heretics/schismatics who repent of their heresy/schism.  If a heretic repents of his private sins but does NOT repent of his heresy, he is damned.

    And...this also does NOT apply to the unbaptized.  NO unbaptized person can "repent enough" to gain baptism.  They can repent and receive God's forgiveness, but if they die unbaptized, they go to Limbo.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #66 on: December 10, 2025, 09:36:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 10, 2025, 09:32:48 AM
    So you're saying a baptized, heretic is on his deathbed and repents of his heresy?  If that's the case, then yes, he *could* be reconciled to the Church and become a member again.  I say *could* because (in this hypothetical case) he didn't confess his heresy to a priest but only repented in his heart.

    The error/confusion is your statement that such a repentant heretic wouldn't be a member of the church.  Yes, it would.  They are already baptized, they are already members.  Their heresy makes them outside of the church.  If they repented, they would be members again.  So, yes, they could be saved.

    But...let's make this clear....this would only apply to heretics/schismatics who repent of their heresy/schism.  If a heretic repents of his private sins but does NOT repent of his heresy, he is damned.

    And...this also does NOT apply to the unbaptized.  NO unbaptized person can "repent enough" to gain baptism.  They can repent and receive God's forgiveness, but if they die unbaptized, they go to Limbo.

    Again from Gemini...

    At the point that the person described above is forgiven of the guilt of their sins but does not have access to the sacrament are thy considered to be a formal, visible member of the Catholic Church?

    This is a complex and nuanced theological question that sits at the intersection of grace, the necessity of the Sacraments, and the visible structure of the Church.

    The answer, according to Catholic teaching, is No, they are not yet considered a formal, visible member of the Catholic Church, even though they are reconciled to God (in a state of grace).

    Here is the breakdown of why this is the case:

    1. Reconciliation of Guilt vs. Full Ecclesiastical Communion

    The two main effects being discussed are:

    AspectDescriptionStatus of the Person
    Guilt of Sins (Internal)Restoration of Sanctifying Grace and forgiveness of mortal sins.FORGIVEN. Perfect Contrition, by definition, restores the life of grace (justification), placing the soul back into friendship with God.
    Ecclesiastical Status (External)Full, visible, and lawful membership in the Catholic Church, including lifting of canonical penalties.NOT YET RESTORED. The state of heresy/schism and the penalty of excommunication require a formal juridical act of the Church.

    2. The Canonical Barrier (Excommunication)

    A baptized person who is a formal heretic incurs a canonical penalty, specifically automatic excommunication (latae sententiae).

    • Excommunication is an ecclesiastical censure that excludes the person from the full communion of the Church.
    • The mere forgiveness of sin by God (via perfect contrition) restores the internal state of grace, but it does not automatically lift the canonical penalty imposed by the Church's external forum (Canon Law).
    In other words:

    • God has forgiven the sin. The soul is saved if the person dies in this state.
    • The Church has not yet lifted the penalty. The person remains legally outside the visible, canonical structure of the Church.

    3. The Necessity of the Sacrament (in Voto)

    The Council of Trent's teaching on perfect contrition is critical:

    Quote
    "This reconciliation [by perfect contrition], nevertheless, is not to be ascribed to the contrition itself without a desire of the sacrament, which desire is included therein." (Session XIV, Chapter 4)
    For the person's sorrow to be perfect (out of love for God), it must include the firm intention and desire to submit to the means God established for reconciliation, which is the Sacrament of Penance administered by a priest with proper faculties.

    Therefore, the person is in a state of grace by desire for the Sacrament and the Church (in voto), but the formal reception of the Sacrament is the ordinary, visible, and juridical act required to fully lift the excommunication and restore the person to formal, visible, full communion with the Catholic Church.

    The person is an invisible member of the Church in the sense that they possess sanctifying grace (the life of the Holy Spirit), but they are not yet a visible member in the canonical sense.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #67 on: December 10, 2025, 09:38:49 AM »
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    • Don't have any idea what that has to do with my post.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #68 on: December 10, 2025, 09:43:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 10, 2025, 09:38:49 AM
    Don't have any idea what that has to do with my post.

    You said, "The error/confusion is your statement that such a repentant heretic wouldn't be a member of the church.  Yes, it would.  They are already baptized, they are already members."

    Then I posted the answer from Gemini explaining that the person would not be considered to be a formal, visible member of the Church at the time of their "justification." 
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #69 on: December 10, 2025, 09:45:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 10, 2025, 09:06:07 AM
    You seem intent on misunderstanding my meaning. The heretics and schismatics that we are talking about are outside of the Church prior to their confession. They then confess, with perfect contrition, directly to God. They make no contact with a Catholic priest and do not rejoin the Catholic Church in any formal, visible way. They then die immediately after this.
    Supposing this hypothetical has ever happened, the heretic or schismatic would need to cease to be a heretic or schismatic in order to be remitted of his sins. As a heretic or schismatic, he is outside the Church. As he is outside the Church, his sins cannot be remitted. He would need to become a member of the Church (inside the Church) prior to his sins being remitted.

    In theory I can see this happening by him abjuring his heresy or schism (now no longer a heretic or schismatic), and repenting of his sins with perfect contrition. Those two things may be what could make him a member of the Church again, and then able to be forgiven. So, he would not be outside the Church and would not have his sins remitted outside the Church in this scenario.
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #70 on: December 10, 2025, 09:52:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on December 10, 2025, 09:45:03 AM
    Supposing this hypothetical has ever happened, the heretic or schismatic would need to cease to be a heretic or schismatic in order to be remitted of his sins. As a heretic or schismatic, he is outside the Church. As he is outside the Church, his sins cannot be remitted. He would need to become a member of the Church (inside the Church) prior to his sins being remitted.

    In theory I can see this happening by him abjuring his heresy or schism (now no longer a heretic or schismatic), and repenting of his sins with perfect contrition. Those two things may be what could make him a member of the Church again, and then able to be forgiven. So, he would not be outside the Church and would not have his sins remitted outside the Church in this scenario.

    Please read the quotes from Gemini that I posted so I don't have to repeat everything.

    But in essence, the person would not be a formal, visible member of the Catholic Church. He would not have access to the Sacraments and the treasury of graces from indulgences until he came back formally into the Church.

    So, in that case, the person would be "justified" in the eyes of God at the moment of his repentance with perfect contrition, but he would still have temporal debt for his sins with no formal way to pay down those debts. If the person then died in that state, what happens to him? Do you think he burns in eternal Hell because he is not a formal, visible member of the Catholic Church?
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #71 on: December 10, 2025, 09:55:02 AM »
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    • But really, I see no good that comes out of these "what if" scenarios. Heretics and Schismatics need to repent now. They do not need to be told that it's possible for them to live their life as a heretic and schismatic and then just make an act of perfect contrition the moment before they die. Personally, I doubt that has ever happened 
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #72 on: December 10, 2025, 10:00:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 10, 2025, 09:52:25 AM
    Please read the quotes from Gemini that I posted so I don't have to repeat everything.

    But in essence, the person would not be a formal, visible member of the Catholic Church. He would not have access to the Sacraments and the treasury of graces from indulgences until he came back formally into the Church.

    So, in that case, the person would be "justified" in the eyes of God at the moment of his repentance with perfect contrition, but he would still have temporal debt for his sins with no formal way to pay down those debts. If the person then died in that state, what happens to him? Do you think he burns in eternal Hell because he is not a formal, visible member of the Catholic Church?
    I do not subscribe to any "visible" or "invisible" Church membership theory. That has never been taught by the Church. You are either a member of the Body of Christ or you are not. If you are, your sins can be remitted. If you are not, they cannot be
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #73 on: December 10, 2025, 10:04:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 10, 2025, 09:43:10 AM
    You said, "The error/confusion is your statement that such a repentant heretic wouldn't be a member of the church.  Yes, it would.  They are already baptized, they are already members."

    Then I posted the answer from Gemini explaining that the person would not be considered to be a formal, visible member of the Church at the time of their "justification."
    What is Gemini?  Is this AI?  :facepalm:

    You're reading things from AI, but you do not comprehend.  That's your problem.

    In your hypothetical situation (i.e. perfect act of contrition) NO ONE KNOWS (exteriorly) that the person repented, because it's between that person and God.

    But, in the spiritual realm (i.e. interiorly), yes, that person was reconciled to the Church and became a formal member.  You can't be justified OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH.  Any justification happens ONLY IN THE CHURCH.  So if this person repented, HE WAS FORGIVEN BY THE CHURCH and Christ's merits.  Thus, he was saved INSIDE THE CHURCH.

    ---

    Now, the distinction comes into play of exterior knowledge vs interior (i.e. God can read hearts).  In the case of the above repentant heretic, since the Church CANNOT READ the interior heart, this person would NOT be given a catholic funeral, or be counted among the saints, or be prayed to.  
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #74 on: December 10, 2025, 10:08:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on December 10, 2025, 09:55:02 AM
    But really, I see no good that comes out of these "what if" scenarios. Heretics and Schismatics need to repent now. They do not need to be told that it's possible for them to live their life as a heretic and schismatic and then just make an act of perfect contrition the moment before they die. Personally, I doubt that has ever happened

    The "good" that comes from these "what if" scenarios is to make sure that people who discuss EENS understand that there are some perfectly orthodox corner cases that don't fit into the oversimplified understanding of EENS. 

    The Church's Magisterium and its theologians and doctors have discussed all of these corner cases, and their understanding of EENS is complex and should not be ignored and oversimplified. The truth matters even if is time-consuming to understand and difficult to explain. 
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