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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 241055 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2025, 06:11:16 PM »
I might actually have to copy and save out these last few posts just to illustrate how desperate and insane the anti-EENS people are.

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2025, 06:25:10 PM »
What you say is absolutely true for "salvation," which means going straight to Heaven without a stop in any other abode after death. No one, who is not a baptized member of the Church has the chance "to benefit from the ecclesiastical sacraments and fasting, almsgiving and other offices of piety and exercises of the Christian soldiery that bring forth eternal rewards." These things prepare the white garment of the soul. And they are only available to Catholics.
This is the first time I have seen this narrow definition of salvation...salvation is entering the Kingdom of Heaven, plain and simple. All Catholics who die in a state of grace will enter the state of salvation.

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However, not all who are outside the Church will burn in Hell forever and never make it to Paradise. In fact, even most Catholics will suffer "the fires of Hell" in Purgatory for a long time before entering Paradise.

Uhhh, I really hope I am misinterpreting what you are saying here. If not, it is easily refuted by Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam:

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With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin
As shown by Eugene IV's teaching, pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics are in no way united to the Church in any manner. Their sins cannot be remitted, ergo they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ever. 

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The point is that there are other temporary places for those non-saved souls are "detained," and we shouldn't lose sight of that fact. Aquinas speaks of five places:

 Aquinas speaks of no place that those who die outside the Church are temporarily held...



Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2025, 06:44:55 PM »
Right ... BoD cannot stand up to the definition of Florence regarding how the Sacraments cannot benefit them to salvation, which is precisely the only non-openly-heretical version of BoD you can hold, namely, that the Sacrament of Baptism somehow effects salvation by operating through the desire for it.  If you denied that it did, then you are a heretic for denying the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  But, the problem is that the prospective beneficiary of BoD is not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body, since all theologians admit that one does not join the body until the actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism, i.e. that those receiving BoD are not in the Body of the Church, but somehow just attached to the soul, etc.  But if that's the case -- and it is -- then Florence dogmatically teaches that the Sacrament cannot in fact benefit them unto salvation.  Trent also teaches the same about the Sacrament of Confession, where perfect contrition on its own cannot restore a fallen soul to a state of justification, not without the intention to receive the Sacrament, since there can be no forgiveness of sin after a post-Baptismal fall without the Sacrament.  So, then, perfect contrition on its own can't restore non-Catholics to any kind of state of justification, since they cannot receive the Sacrament of Confession, nor are the unbaptized even subjec to the power of the keys, which is necessary for absolution from sin.

Now, Msgr. Fenton at least recognized this problem, and he correctly rejected the idea that people can be saved simply be belonging to the "soul" of the Church, rejecting the notion that there can be a soul of the Church that's not co-extensive with the body, as if the animal soul of a human body can extend beyond the actual physical body itself.

So what he does is claim that one can be IN the Body of the Church without being a PART OF the Body of the Church (i.e. a member of the Church) ... something which I've described as "Undigested Hamburger Ecclesiology".  So, what is in the body but not part of it.  Well, something like food that is IN the stomach but has not been digested and somehow converted into human tissue and made one with the body.

But Florence destroys that as well, since it explicilty teaches that they must be in the UNITY of the Body.  Food that you put in your mouth is not PART OF your body, one with your body ... but is merely per accidens in your body.  Unity with the Body requires a substantial conformity with it, i.e. where you would have to share the body's DNA and be part of the organism, not just accidentally inside and/or somehow attached to your body.  I could also conduct some bizarre experiment where I would take the body part of an animal and sew it onto a human being (some sicko scientists have in fact done stuff like that), but that doesn't mean that it's essentially part of my body, just accidentally fused onto it.

SVs have attacked SSPX and other R&R for their "Frankenchurch" theology, but this take "Frankenchurch" to the next level, where it's possible like Victor Frankenstein, to stitch together various disparate body parts into some monstrosity.  Is that the Body of the Church?  Ridiculous.
I think it's truly providential that Pope Eugene IV used the terms that he did when referring to those outside the Church. He taught that pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics:

are outside of the Church

are not joined to the Church

do not abide in the unity of the ecclesiastical body

are not in the bosom and unity of the Church 

It leaves absolutely zero leeway to somehow describe them as "united" to the Church..but of course that doesn't matter to those who do not believe the Dogma 

Offline Angelus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2025, 07:31:04 PM »
Yeah, so now you engage in a play of words where those outside the Church are not saved and go to Hell only in the sense that they god to the "fires of Hell" in Purgatory.  These heretics never cease to amaze me with their lies and mendacity.

While, some theologians claim that the fires of Purgatory and the fires of Hell are the same fires (I dispute this), Purgatory and Hell are two completely different places, where those in Purgatgory are in a state of justification, are friends with God, and are in a state of grace, whereas those in Hell are not.

But, then, again, you don't bother to read the Church's dogmatic definition at Florence.

Let's try again:
So, yeah, those outside the Church will burn in Hell forever, and not the temporary "Hell" that you've just redefined as Purgatory.  See that term there above, "everlasting", you know, the fire where the devils are ... or do you believe the devils are in Purgatory and will also eventually get out?  At that point, you're on track to sllide into a different heresy, that of Origen, and revived by Bergoglio here, where in the end, everyone will be converted and enter union with God, all the wicked, and even the devils.

This is the kindof crap that causes steam to practically come out of my ears, it's so stupid, and such a pack of lies, distortions, and fallacies ... that it can only come from the diseased mind of someone who absolute refuses to accept the Church's dogmatic teaching, but then whose tortured conscience will attempt just about anything to claim they actually believe it by completely redefining the meaning of the words, the terms, the concepts ... so they can pay lip service to it, but then what they actually affirm in their intellects is the exact opposite of what the Church was actually teaching here.

Yeah, when the Church says "salvation", it's referring only to those who bypassed Purgatory.  When the Church says "Hell", she really means Purgatory.  When the Church says "everlasting fire prepared for the devil", she really means "temporary fire prepared for the just".  When the Church says "is", she really means ...  When the Church says "is no", she really means "is".  If you don't believe that non-Catholics CAN be saved, then you're a heretic who rejects Church teaching, since we have to understand dogma as the Church understands it, or, rather, I say the Church underestand it, meaning that you're a heretic if you don't accept me as your rule of faith.

You have to be almost certifiably insane to spew this nonsense out there.  No, salvation means what everyone understand by salvation.  No, the everlasting fires prepared for the devil and his angels really is Hell, and not Purgatory.  Yes, "is" does in fact mean "is", and "is no" does not mean "is".

I said that that the state of Purgatory is not the state of salvation.

Eventually all who go to Purgatory will be in the state of salvation, so those in Purgatory have the assurance of eventual salvation. But, while in Purgatory, they are not in a state of "welfare" or "health," which are the literal meanings of the word "salus" in Latin. They are in a state of suffering, and that is why we are called pray for them.

And I never said that everyone would be converted. Very few will be converted, in fact. But the Church does teach that non-Catholics with perfect Contrition can be justified. And the state of justification has its own reward.

I said: "However, not all who are outside the Church will burn in Hell forever and never make it to Paradise. In fact, even most Catholics will suffer 'the fires of Hell' in Purgatory for a long time before entering Paradise." 

For example, you would consider many people who are validly-baptized to be "outside the Church," right? Some are Orthodox or Protestant, etc. If these people, confess directly to God with perfect contrition, what do you think the Church says happens to them? They will be justified by having true sorrow for their sins. If this happens, and they die immediately after, do they burn in Hell forever? Does the Church teach that?

Offline Angelus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2025, 07:37:42 PM »
This is the first time I have seen this narrow definition of salvation...salvation is entering the Kingdom of Heaven, plain and simple. All Catholics who die in a state of grace will enter the state of salvation.

Uhhh, I really hope I am misinterpreting what you are saying here. If not, it is easily refuted by Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam:
As shown by Eugene IV's teaching, pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics are in no way united to the Church in any manner. Their sins cannot be remitted, ergo they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ever.

 Aquinas speaks of no place that those who die outside the Church are temporarily held...

Yes, those outside the Church who remain in their state of sin by rejecting Christ and His Church at the time of their death "cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ever." Agreed.

But people in those categories can make an act of Perfect Contrition to God directly before their death can be justified by that act. They will not go to Heaven directly. They will need to expiate their sins. Where do they do that?