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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 120416 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #330 on: December 15, 2025, 10:45:32 AM »
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  • :laugh1:  Ok.  It's heresy either way.

    It just is, huh? Why don't you prove it if you are so certain?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #331 on: December 15, 2025, 07:03:26 PM »
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  • Here is the revised version of the monograph. Awaiting your charitable criticisms.



    Zoe, Soteria, and the Inviolable Necessity of the Church

    A Re-examination of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in Light of the Magisterium of Pius IX

    Prefatory Definitions: The Grammar of Eternity

    This thesis rests on the precise, traditional meaning of key theological terms, particularly the distinction found in Scripture between "Life" and "Salvation."

    Terminology      Latin      Definition and Theological Function
    Zoe (Eternal Life)
    Aeternam VitamThe Interior State of Grace (Spiritual Vitality). Accessible to the Invincibly Ignorant via "Divine Light" (Pius IX). It secures the soul against Hell.
    Soteria (Salvation)
    SalvariThe Juridical Status of being "Rescued," clothed in the Baptismal Character (the Wedding Garment), and granted immediate access to the Beatific Vision (BV). Mediated exclusively by the Church.
    The Debt of Nature
    Poena DamniThe remaining spiritual deficit (lack of the Baptismal Character) after justification. Distinct from the Guilt of sin.
    Invincibly Ignorant (II)
    N/APersons who, through no fault of their own, adhere to the natural law and cooperate with God's sufficient grace (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore).

    Abstract

    This monograph offers a final resolution to the EENS paradox. It asserts that the Invincibly Ignorant attain Zoe (Eternal Life) through sufficient grace, which clears them of the guilt of personal sin and heresy, in accordance with the promises of Pius IX. However, this grace is insufficient to remove the Debt of Nature(the lack of the Baptismal Character), thereby barring them from Soteria (immediate Beatific Vision). This dual outcome preserves the integrity of EENS, honors divine mercy, and rigorously defends the indispensable necessity of the Sacraments.




    Part I: The "Pius IX Paradox" and the Miracle Fallacy

    The core conflict arises from holding two absolute truths: the necessity of the visible Church (EENS) and the justice of God. The paradox is summarized by the contrasting statements of Pope Pius IX:


    - The Exclusion: "Out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved [salvari]..." (Singulari Quadam)
    - The Exception: "Able to attain eternal life [aeternam vitam] by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)

    The Final Defense: Rejecting the "Miracle Fallacy"

    Standard neo-scholastic theology often attempts to reconcile this by claiming God sends a missionary or angel to baptize the Invincibly Ignorant at the moment of death. We reject this "Miraculous Conversion" theory because it renders the Magisterium redundant.


    Pius IX's Claim: The Pope solemnly assures the faithful that the Invincibly Ignorant "would not be held guilty" for their lack of knowledge.

    - The Logical Flaw: If the Invincibly Ignorant must undergo a miraculous conversion to be saved, the Pope's statement is redundant, as a converted Catholic is always held guiltless.

    - The Conclusion: The Pope's words are only meaningful if we affirm that sufficient grace operates within the state of ignorance, justifying them for Zoe without requiring a conversion miracle for Soteria.




    Part II: The Sacramental Economy and the Bar to Soteria

    If the Invincibly Ignorant possess Zoe but lack the Sacraments, what is their status?


    1. Justification vs. Purification: The Distinction of Debt

    We distinguish between the Guilt of Sin and the Debt of Nature.

    - Guilt Removed (Zoe Achieved): The "Divine Light and Grace" provided to the Invincibly Ignorant removes the guilt (enmity with God) caused by original and personal sin. Crucially, this assumes the person is observing the Natural Law and is not in a state of unrepented personal mortal sin.

    - Debt Remains (Soteria Bar): The debt—defined here as the lack of the Baptismal Character (formal incorporation into Christ's mystical Body)—remains. This Character is the "Key" to the immediate Beatific Vision. Without it, the soul is Justified but locked out of the Bridal Chamber.


    2. The New Covenant "Limbus Patrum"

    The state of the Invincibly Ignorant who die in grace is analogous to the Old Testament Patriarchs:


    EntityState of Grace (Guilt)Impediment (Debt)Intermediate Destination
    OT Fathers(Abraham, Moses)
    Possessed Grace (Zoe) and were Friends of God.Lacked the Sacrament of the Cross (Redemption not yet applied).Limbus Patrum (Natural peace, Supernatural deprivation)
    Invincibly Ignorant (The Just Nations)
    Possess Grace (Zoe) via Divine Light.Lacks the Sacrament of Baptism (Character not received).Limbo of the Just (Natural peace, Supernatural deprivation)

    The Invincibly Ignorant wait in a state of supernatural peace because, while their guilt is remitted, the debtremains unfulfilled by the Sacramental economy.

    3. The Final Resolution: The General Judgment


    The deprivation of Soteria is a delay, not a permanent condemnation.


    - The Event: The General Resurrection at the End of Days.

    - The Mechanism: The Resurrection serves as the final, universal redemptive act, superseding the need for the individual Sacramental Character (which was necessary for the intermediate state).

    - The Outcome: The Invincibly Ignorant, possessing Zoe, are resurrected and fully integrated into the glorious, embodied bliss of the New Heaven and New Earth, enjoying the Beatific Vision as their final reward.



    Part III: The Inviolable Necessity of the Church

    If the Invincibly Ignorant eventually reach the New Heaven, does the Church matter? The Dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus retains its absolute force as the truth of Spiritual Survival and Highest Perfection.


    1. Necessity for Perfection (Soteria)


    The Church is the sole mediator of the Sacraments, which alone remit the Debt of Nature and guarantee immediate access to the Beatific Vision upon death. To be without the Church is to suffer the deprivation and "long waiting" of the outer courts—a loss of incalculable magnitude compared to the immediate bliss of the Bride.


    2. Necessity for Safety (The Argument from Moral Probability)


    While it is possible to have Zoe outside the Church, it is statistically improbable to maintain it.


    - The Danger: The Invincibly Ignorant lack the Sacraments (Penance and Eucharist), which are the primary medicines against concupiscence.

    - The Reality: Without these aids, consistently observing the Natural Law and avoiding mortal sin is extraordinarily difficult.

    - The Imperative: Therefore, the Church is the "Ark of Salvation" not only because it carries us to the final port, but because it protects us from the waves of sin that drown the unaided soul. To be outside is to tread water in a storm; while God can sustain you, the likelihood of drowning (Mortal Sin) is immense.


    Conclusion

    We evangelize not to save men from a cruel God, but to save them from the darkness of error, the peril of sin, and the sorrowful waiting of the Limbus Patrum. We invite them instead into the guaranteed, immediate, and complete perfection (Soteria) of the Bride of Christ.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #332 on: December 15, 2025, 07:34:28 PM »
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  • Here is the revised version of the monograph. Awaiting your charitable criticisms.



    Zoe, Soteria, and the Inviolable Necessity of the Church

    A Re-examination of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in Light of the Magisterium of Pius IX

    Prefatory Definitions: The Grammar of Eternity

    This thesis rests on the precise, traditional meaning of key theological terms, particularly the distinction found in Scripture between "Life" and "Salvation."

    Terminology      Latin      Definition and Theological Function
    Zoe (Eternal Life)
    Aeternam VitamThe Interior State of Grace (Spiritual Vitality). Accessible to the Invincibly Ignorant via "Divine Light" (Pius IX). It secures the soul against Hell.
    Soteria (Salvation)
    SalvariThe Juridical Status of being "Rescued," clothed in the Baptismal Character (the Wedding Garment), and granted immediate access to the Beatific Vision (BV). Mediated exclusively by the Church.
    The Debt of Nature
    Poena DamniThe remaining spiritual deficit (lack of the Baptismal Character) after justification. Distinct from the Guilt of sin.
    Invincibly Ignorant (II)
    N/APersons who, through no fault of their own, adhere to the natural law and cooperate with God's sufficient grace (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore).

    Abstract

    This monograph offers a final resolution to the EENS paradox. It asserts that the Invincibly Ignorant attain Zoe (Eternal Life) through sufficient grace, which clears them of the guilt of personal sin and heresy, in accordance with the promises of Pius IX. However, this grace is insufficient to remove the Debt of Nature(the lack of the Baptismal Character), thereby barring them from Soteria (immediate Beatific Vision). This dual outcome preserves the integrity of EENS, honors divine mercy, and rigorously defends the indispensable necessity of the Sacraments.




    Part I: The "Pius IX Paradox" and the Miracle Fallacy

    The core conflict arises from holding two absolute truths: the necessity of the visible Church (EENS) and the justice of God. The paradox is summarized by the contrasting statements of Pope Pius IX:


    - The Exclusion: "Out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved [salvari]..." (Singulari Quadam)
    - The Exception: "Able to attain eternal life [aeternam vitam] by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)

    The Final Defense: Rejecting the "Miracle Fallacy"

    Standard neo-scholastic theology often attempts to reconcile this by claiming God sends a missionary or angel to baptize the Invincibly Ignorant at the moment of death. We reject this "Miraculous Conversion" theory because it renders the Magisterium redundant.


    Pius IX's Claim: The Pope solemnly assures the faithful that the Invincibly Ignorant "would not be held guilty" for their lack of knowledge.

    - The Logical Flaw: If the Invincibly Ignorant must undergo a miraculous conversion to be saved, the Pope's statement is redundant, as a converted Catholic is always held guiltless.

    - The Conclusion: The Pope's words are only meaningful if we affirm that sufficient grace operates within the state of ignorance, justifying them for Zoe without requiring a conversion miracle for Soteria.




    Part II: The Sacramental Economy and the Bar to Soteria

    If the Invincibly Ignorant possess Zoe but lack the Sacraments, what is their status?


    1. Justification vs. Purification: The Distinction of Debt

    We distinguish between the Guilt of Sin and the Debt of Nature.

    - Guilt Removed (Zoe Achieved): The "Divine Light and Grace" provided to the Invincibly Ignorant removes the guilt (enmity with God) caused by original and personal sin. Crucially, this assumes the person is observing the Natural Law and is not in a state of unrepented personal mortal sin.

    - Debt Remains (Soteria Bar): The debt—defined here as the lack of the Baptismal Character (formal incorporation into Christ's mystical Body)—remains. This Character is the "Key" to the immediate Beatific Vision. Without it, the soul is Justified but locked out of the Bridal Chamber.


    2. The New Covenant "Limbus Patrum"

    The state of the Invincibly Ignorant who die in grace is analogous to the Old Testament Patriarchs:


    EntityState of Grace (Guilt)Impediment (Debt)Intermediate Destination
    OT Fathers(Abraham, Moses)
    Possessed Grace (Zoe) and were Friends of God.Lacked the Sacrament of the Cross (Redemption not yet applied).Limbus Patrum (Natural peace, Supernatural deprivation)
    Invincibly Ignorant (The Just Nations)
    Possess Grace (Zoe) via Divine Light.Lacks the Sacrament of Baptism (Character not received).Limbo of the Just (Natural peace, Supernatural deprivation)

    The Invincibly Ignorant wait in a state of supernatural peace because, while their guilt is remitted, the debtremains unfulfilled by the Sacramental economy.

    3. The Final Resolution: The General Judgment


    The deprivation of Soteria is a delay, not a permanent condemnation.


    - The Event: The General Resurrection at the End of Days.

    - The Mechanism: The Resurrection serves as the final, universal redemptive act, superseding the need for the individual Sacramental Character (which was necessary for the intermediate state).

    - The Outcome: The Invincibly Ignorant, possessing Zoe, are resurrected and fully integrated into the glorious, embodied bliss of the New Heaven and New Earth, enjoying the Beatific Vision as their final reward.



    Part III: The Inviolable Necessity of the Church

    If the Invincibly Ignorant eventually reach the New Heaven, does the Church matter? The Dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus retains its absolute force as the truth of Spiritual Survival and Highest Perfection.


    1. Necessity for Perfection (Soteria)


    The Church is the sole mediator of the Sacraments, which alone remit the Debt of Nature and guarantee immediate access to the Beatific Vision upon death. To be without the Church is to suffer the deprivation and "long waiting" of the outer courts—a loss of incalculable magnitude compared to the immediate bliss of the Bride.


    2. Necessity for Safety (The Argument from Moral Probability)


    While it is possible to have Zoe outside the Church, it is statistically improbable to maintain it.


    - The Danger: The Invincibly Ignorant lack the Sacraments (Penance and Eucharist), which are the primary medicines against concupiscence.

    - The Reality: Without these aids, consistently observing the Natural Law and avoiding mortal sin is extraordinarily difficult.

    - The Imperative: Therefore, the Church is the "Ark of Salvation" not only because it carries us to the final port, but because it protects us from the waves of sin that drown the unaided soul. To be outside is to tread water in a storm; while God can sustain you, the likelihood of drowning (Mortal Sin) is immense.


    Conclusion

    We evangelize not to save men from a cruel God, but to save them from the darkness of error, the peril of sin, and the sorrowful waiting of the Limbus Patrum. We invite them instead into the guaranteed, immediate, and complete perfection (Soteria) of the Bride of Christ.

    Addendum:

    Moral Requirements of the Natural Law that must be "sincerely observed" by "those invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion." Only after doing this would they receive "the efficacious virtue of divine grace and light" needed "to attain eternal life." Let me know if you think something needs to be corrected.




    CategoryPrimary NL Precept ViolatedSpecific Mortal Sins that Forfeit Zoe

    I. Against God, Worship, and Truth

    Duty to the First Cause and Truth

    Culpable Idolatry, Blasphemy/Perjury, Superstition.
    Culpable Ignorance: Willful failure to seek the truth about the highest good (Creator). Contemptuous Refusal of Public Worship: Grave and willful denial of the rational duty to publicly acknowledge the Creator.

    II. Against Life and Preservation

    Preservation of Being/Health
    (Commandment V, III)

    Murder, Grave Physical Assault.
    Grave Refusal of Necessary Rest:Willful refusal of necessary repose that leads to serious harm to health or rational capacity.

    III. Against Justice and Reputation

    Justice/Charity
    (Commandment IV, VII, VIII, X)

    Grave Theft/Fraud, Unjust Wages, Oppression of Vulnerable, Grave Failure of Filial Duty.
    Calumny/Detraction/Contumely: Maliciously destroying a neighbor's reputation/honor.

    IV. Against sɛҳuąƖ Order (Intrinsically Evil Acts)

    Teleology/Purity
    (Commandment VI)
    Adultery, Sodomy/ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Acts, Coitus Interruptus / Sterilization.

    V. Against Interior Purity/Justice

    Integrity of Will
    (Commandment IX & X)

    Mortal Desire:
    Deliberate, firm consent to the interior desire to commit an external act of mortal sin (e.g., plan to steal/commit adultery).






    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #333 on: January 20, 2026, 02:13:11 AM »
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  • And yet, are you aware of this? If I am not mistaken, this chapel has a habit of using CathInfo posts as some sort of authoritative source. :smirk:

    http://saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/Catholic%20Controversies/Sedevacantists%20and%20Conservative%20Catholics-%20Unity%20in%20Error_%20Both%20believe%20Pope%20is%20Rule%20of%20Faith.htm




       
    Below is the Membership pledge for SS Peter and Paul RCM chapel in York, PA which was started almost 26 years ago in the basement of a home, then at a hotel every Sunday for 2 years with the help of 12 priests and finally the chapel was purchased 22 years ago for the purpose of doing what was pledged.

    At the time it began, there was only one indult Mass in PA once a month on a Saturday in a high school chapel. At our petition the good priest who said the Mass, Fr. Campion, did it on the First Saturday of the month. When bishop Dattilo of hαɾɾιsburg made it clear that "that was all the traditionalists were going to get", St Peter and Paul's RCM was born. For years, the young families used the indult for their First Saturday devotion and drove 1-1/2-2 hrs to SSPX Philadelphia on Sunday and some to the Eastern rites.

    My husband, Drew, was asked to be the Chairman and wrote the bylaws in which the Statement of Purpose below was incorporated. The Mission has Members of the Pius Union that have never been to the chapel but who are in full agreement with our purpose and read the weekly bulletin and have read all the Open Letters.

    There is also a link called Current Catholic Controversies (linked below) which contains discussions on CathInfo and other blogs where my husband has participated for the purpose of defending the Catholic faith.

    We don't have "a habit of using CathInfo posts as some sort of authoritative source", we keep a record on the website because blogs like Angel Queen, Ignis Ardens and others have been forced to close. They are not opinions, they reflect Catholic teaching whole and undefiled whether some like it or not.

    On the Feast of The Conversion of St. Paul, Jan. 25th, we will celebrate the 22nd anniversary of the first Mass at the chapel (2004). At the first Mass, the indult Mass organizer came with an oral message from Bishop Rhoads to make SS P& Paul RCM "the indult community in PA" which we rejected. We got another written offer by the bishop which is in the website which we also rejected. It was then that the indult communities began all around us. The first one was in hαɾɾιsburg were they were given St. Lawrence, then St. Alphosus in Baltimore, Lancaster...Without SSP&P RCM chapel, that would not have been possible.

    Current Catholic Controversies link:
    http://saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/Catholic%20Controversies/Current%20Catholic%20Controversies.htm



    Quote
    http://saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/MISSION%20STATEMENT%20MEMBRSHIP%20PLEDGE.htm

    SS. Peter and Paul Roman Catholic Mission
    Membership Pledge
     
    The members of the Saints Peter and Paul Roman Catholic Mission, in fulfillment of the solemn obligations of their baptism, have joined together in a lay apostolate to work toward the sanctification of their souls by restoring to the Diocese of hαɾɾιsburg and defending the Ecclesiastical Traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, the patrimony and right of all Catholics, as necessary attributes of the Catholic Faith without which that Faith cannot be known or communicated to others. The primary focus of these efforts are the propagation of the “received and approved rites customarily used in the solemn administration of the sacraments,” most importantly of which is the immemorial Roman Rite of the Mass for the holy and acceptable public worship of God, as codified by Pope St. Pius V (found in the 1955 or previous edition of the Missale Romanum); the defense of all Catholic dogmas in their literal sense as formal objects of “divine and Catholic faith”; and in the providing of sound traditional catechetical instructions for the purpose of promoting the Truths of our Faith for the greater glory of God and the conversion of souls to the Catholic Church, “outside of which there is no salvation” nor the forgiveness of sins. The members observe holy Catholic obedience to our Holy Father, the Pope of Rome, and his delegated representative, the local ordinary of the Diocese of hαɾɾιsburg, in all things that are not contrary to, or could in any way impede directly or indirectly, the restoration and defense of the immemorial traditions of the Catholic Church and the defense of Catholic dogma.
     
    The Members, in following the exhortation of Pope St. Pius X to “restore all things in Christ,” bound together in acts of prayer and penance, will engage in any form of Catholic Action, which is related to the divine mission of the Church in establishing and extending the Kingship of Jesus Christ to everyone; individuals, families and society.  So help us God.
     
    Furthermore, the members have pledged to offer the daily Rosary, a weekly day of fast (on Tuesday if possible), and a monthly one hour act of reparation before the Blessed Sacrament as a minimum to our Lord Jesus Christ and his Blessed Mother to win from their hearts the grace and blessings for the success of this enterprise.
     
     
     
     
    ____________________ 
    Signature
     
    SS. Peter and Paul Roman Catholic Mission
    P. O. Box 7352
    York, PA 17408
     

    And Lastly, the link to Open Letters:  http://saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/open_letters.htm

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #334 on: January 20, 2026, 09:39:02 AM »
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  • Here is the revised version of the monograph. Awaiting your charitable criticisms.

    NO !!!

    You still cling to this bizarre definition of "Salvation" as referring only to the state of going immediately to Heaven after death without needing to pass through Purgatory.  Traditionally, all those who end up in the Kingdom are considered to have been "Saved", regardless of whether they had to spend some time in Purgatory.

    That alleged "contradiction" between Pope Pius IX and EENS dogma has long been resovled.  Pius IX is teaching nothing other than what St. Thomas taught that those who do not place obstacles in the way of salvation will be led EVENTUALLY or ULTIMATELY to eternal life and salvation, not that they would attain it if they died in that current state, before having been enlightened by grace.


    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #335 on: January 20, 2026, 02:18:20 PM »
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  • Lad, Angelus' "Monographs" are just AI generated slop that he cuts and pastes.

    Armchair theologians + AI = cringy spam
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Merry

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #336 on: Yesterday at 06:12:44 PM »
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  • Someone in the comment section about Bishop Fellay and the FL confirmation, posted this -  


    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #337 on: Yesterday at 08:25:41 PM »
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  • Where and when does the doctrine of BOB/BOD originate? I have seen it mentioned in an early 1900's book of Catholic doctrine, and in a 1892 lives of the saints, not that those prove anything other than how long such teaching has been around for without being removed from books.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #338 on: Yesterday at 08:36:02 PM »
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  • Where and when does the doctrine of BOB/BOD originate? I have seen it mentioned in an early 1900's book of Catholic doctrine, and in a 1892 lives of the saints, not that those prove anything other than how long such teaching has been around for without being removed from books.
    Early church, some saints speculated on it some did not. Eg. St Gregory nαzιanzus denied BoD but accepted BoB. 

    Offline Merry

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #339 on: Today at 11:42:18 AM »
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  • The Church has defined the following.  It's the truth of the matter, the ultimate statement.  It's above any catechism, any thought of any saint or Pope, even the holiest.  This is the Holy Ghost defining, the Holy Ghost having the last word: 

    Council of FlorenceCantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the 'eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church". The same council also ruled that those who die in original sin, but without mortal sin, will also find punishment in hell, but unequally: "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains"
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"