Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 120048 times)

0 Members and 9 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline SkidRowCatholic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 619
  • Reputation: +62/-25
  • Gender: Male
Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2025, 09:46:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I respect the wishes of all of these groups
    But not +Sanborn apparently...
    they would not hold me to be "in communion" with them anyways. 
    Why not? Do you say this just because of the BOD stuff?
     Hopefully they come around to the Truth
    Do you mean the truth about how they are clinging to a theological opinions about BOD as if it was a dogma (in some persons cases) and they should not do that?

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 619
    • Reputation: +62/-25
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #31 on: December 08, 2025, 09:51:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • +Sanborn says:
    And elsewhere:
    Well, from what I can tell, it was a pretty "normal" pre-Vatican II position.

    Even +Lefebvre said in his "Open Letter to Confused Catholics",

    "It is true that one can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by that religion. One can be saved in it despite that religion, and by the Catholic religion, to which anyone who is saved belongs, even if he does not know it. He is saved by the grace of God which is given to him in view of his good faith, of his fidelity to the natural law and to his conscience, if he is in invincible ignorance of the true religion.”

    Some good points about the development of opinions here:
    https://archive.org/details/necessityofchurc0000king


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 619
    • Reputation: +62/-25
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #32 on: December 08, 2025, 09:58:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Traditional as in explicit faith in the Trinity and Incarnation. Explicit or implicit desire of Baptism after that, opinions vary..
    So, that is definitely where one notices the "slid".

    First start talking about an explicit desire for faith (open the door a crack)

    then,

    an explicit desire for baptism (a little bit wider)

    then

    an implicit desire for faith,(ahhhh Houston, we have a problem) followed by,

    an implicit desire for baptism (because at this point who cares right?), and then...

    POOF!

    Everybody is secretly Catholic!
    The Modernists "saved" the whole world and made them love the "church" in the process, hurray! :jester:


    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2769
    • Reputation: +1390/-313
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #33 on: December 08, 2025, 10:59:26 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, from what I can tell, it was a pretty "normal" pre-Vatican II position.

    Even +Lefebvre said in his "Open Letter to Confused Catholics",

    "It is true that one can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by that religion. One can be saved in it despite that religion, and by the Catholic religion, to which anyone who is saved belongs, even if he does not know it. He is saved by the grace of God which is given to him in view of his good faith, of his fidelity to the natural law and to his conscience, if he is in invincible ignorance of the true religion.”

    Some good points about the development of opinions here:
    https://archive.org/details/necessityofchurc0000king
    That's just the problem. Even the Holy Office said in the 1700s that explicit faith in the Incarnation and Trinity is required before someone is baptised (for age of reason). And even in danger of death they must first profess these things or they are not to be baptised.

    Even Archbishop Lefebvre was a material heretic, because his statement clearly denies the dogma EENS. He incorrectly believed the Church taught it and modern trads follow his error. The clergy even in the 1800s/1900s were weak in faith, if not then V2 wouldn't have happened.

    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1393
    • Reputation: +907/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #34 on: December 09, 2025, 04:31:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But not +Sanborn apparently...Why not?
    Huh, am I receiving the sacraments at RCI chapels without them (or me, for that matter :laugh1: ) knowing it?

    Quote
    Do you say this just because of the BOD stuff?

    Because they refuse the sacraments, yes. I think that is a very big problem, with potentially eternal repercussions!

    Quote
    Do you mean the truth about how they are clinging to a theological opinions about BOD as if it was a dogma (in some persons cases) and they should not do that?
    Sure, and EENS denial.
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1393
    • Reputation: +907/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #35 on: December 09, 2025, 04:36:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, from what I can tell, it was a pretty "normal" pre-Vatican II position.

    Yeah, Archbishop Lefebvre had some statements that are much more explicit than what +Sanborn has said. EENS denial was pretty rampant since at least the mid-late 19th century AFAIK
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 619
    • Reputation: +62/-25
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #36 on: December 09, 2025, 09:11:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Even Archbishop Lefebvre was a material heretic, because his statement clearly denies the dogma EENS.
    Well, those theological opinions (BOD specifically) are NOT YET condemned.

    I do not think he would have said any of these things if it hadn't been for those tolerated theological opinions on BOD (specifically implicit desire of faith and baptism combo).

    One may use syllogistic reasoning to arrive at the moral certainty that they SHOULD BE condemned because of how they negate/undermine the dogma of EENS, but no official condemnation of BOD (using that language) exists to my knowledge.

    I do not recall ever seeing a Pope or the Holy Office use that term before (BOD), but they certainly did allow the theologians to continue spreading it.

    Some will argue that a few docuмents from a few popes and the whole "Feeney affair" prove that they did support BOD. 

    Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Without them using that precise language and holding it up as the official teaching, it certainly is NOT the SUPER DOGMA that many have made it into. 

    So, yes there definitely is an error there, but I am not convinced that it is of the level (declared error/heresy) that would constitute any canonical crime. 

    Many-to-most had this same "error" and it was - for whatever reason - tolerated for a good while.

    When Vatican II hit it was already too late to undo the damage, and BOD fits in well with the new ecclesiology anyway. 

    It is just one more way the Modernists attacked the EENS dogma.

    such as the others;

    Religious Liberty.
    False Ecuмenism.
    Separation of Church and State.
    Abolishing the Index.
    The New Mass (obviously)
    Allowing Cremation.
    Writing that heretics can share Catholic sacraments in the new code of Canon law.
    Benedict XVI heading the theological commission that posited that unbaptized babies may go to heaven.
    Rethinking Vatican I so the Prots and Orthos can have a simulated "unity" with modern "Catholics".
    etc. 

    Their thinking, "If we blur the lines about what the Church is and who is a member, then from the ashes of what we destroy we can build a new way of envisioning membership and the very nature of the Church Itself."

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1465
    • Reputation: +1390/-144
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #37 on: December 09, 2025, 01:38:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sorry, but your husband is wrong about the Pope not being the Proximate Rule of Faith. By replacing the "living Magisterium" (the role played by the Pope) with static Dogma, your husband falls into the error of the Old Catholics.

    On the Cathinfo page you linked to, your husband said the following:

    "Authority is an attribute of the Church primarily and only secondarily and accidentally an attribute of the pope. Those who make the pope the rule of faith have a problem when he is a heretic with the exercise of authority. Those who make dogma the rule of faith can deal with the corruption of authority."

    On Magisterium.com (a mainstream Catholic AI good for Catholic 101 stuff like this) the question was asked,

    "Is the Pope the proximate rule of faith?"

    The concept of the "rule of faith" in Catholic theology refers to the authoritative standard by which the deposit of faith—divinely revealed truths contained in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition—is known, interpreted, and proposed to the faithful. The remote rule of faith is Scripture and Tradition themselves, while the proximate rule is the living Magisterium of the Church, which authentically interprets and guards these sources under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.1 Within this framework, the Pope, as the successor of St. Peter and the visible head of the Church, holds a unique and supreme role as the proximate rule of faith, particularly in resolving doctrinal questions and defining truths for the universal Church. This authority is not absolute in a personal sense but derives from his office, exercised either extraordinarily (ex cathedra) or ordinarily, ensuring unity and fidelity to the apostolic faith.2 3 4

    The Pope's Primacy in Teaching Authority

    The Catholic Church teaches that the Roman Pontiff possesses full, supreme, and universal power over the Church, jure divino (by divine right), as the successor of Peter, to whom Christ entrusted the care of the entire flock (cf. Jn 21:15-17).56 7 8 This includes the responsibility to "feed, rule, and guide the universal Church," making him the principal teacher of all Christians.5 As St. Thomas Aquinas explains, the Pope's authority extends to issuing authoritative judgments on matters of faith "sententialiter determinare" (decisively), so that they may be held by the whole Church with "unshaken faith."2 This role ensures there is "but one faith of the whole Church" (1 Cor 1:10), preventing schisms by resolving disputes that arise.2 4

    St. Robert Bellarmine further clarifies that the Pope, as the Pastor and universal Teacher of the Church, can define matters of faith even without a council, for he "cannot err when he teaches ex cathedra; otherwise the whole Church would err."3This underscores the Pope's position as the proximate norm for the faith, where his definitive teachings bind the consciences of the faithful irrevocably, preserving the purity of the Gospel.9 10

    Distinctions in Magisterial Authority

    Not every papal statement constitutes the proximate rule of faith; the Church distinguishes between levels of authority. Infallible teachings—whether through solemn definitions (extraordinary Magisterium) or the ordinary and universal Magisterium—form the primary and secondary objects of infallibility and demand the full assent of faith (fides divina or fides ecclesiastica).1 The Pope's ex cathedra pronouncements, as defined by Vatican I, meet this criterion, protecting revealed truths from error.11 Even non-infallible teachings in the ordinary Magisterium require religious submission of intellect and will, as they contribute to the Church's doctrinal development and safeguard against harm to faith and morals.1 12 13

    For instance, Pope Leo XIII affirms that "questions which arise touching faith should be determined by him who presides over the whole Church," and his sentence "must consequently be accepted without wavering."4 This primacy is echoed in Vatican I's declaration that the Pope is the "supreme judge of the faithful" in ecclesiastical matters, with no higher authority, such as an ecuмenical council, to which one may appeal.14 Historical errors, like the Gallican articles suggesting papal judgments need the Church's consent to be unalterable, have been condemned as void.15

    Implications for the Faithful

    The Pope's role as proximate rule of faith means Catholics are bound to adhere to his authoritative teachings on doctrine, morals, and governance, fostering communion and obedience.6 This is not a diminishment of the bishops' role—who, with the Pope, form the college of authentic teachers—but a recognition of Petrine primacy, which "presides in love" over the universal Church.11 8 As Pope Pius XII taught, this obedience extends to all pastors and faithful, ensuring "one flock under one supreme shepherd."6 In practice, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith assists the Pope in promoting and safeguarding this integrity, examining potential errors and providing rebuttals.16 9 10

    In summary, yes, the Pope is the proximate rule of faith in his magisterial office, serving as the divinely appointed guardian and interpreter of the depositum fidei for the entire Church. This ensures doctrinal unity amid contemporary challenges, always in service to the truth revealed by Christ.17

    For deeper exploration, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (nn. 85-100) outlines the Magisterium's role comprehensively.

    [1] D'Costa's Hermeneutics page3
    [2] St. Thomas Aquinas and the Origins of the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility page42
    [3] Controversies of the Christian Faith (Disputationes de Controversiis) page453
    [4] Sapientiae Christianae 23
    [5] The Sources of Catholic Dogma (Enchiridion Symbolorum) 3059
    [6] Ad Apostolorum principis 46
    [7] Evangelii Nuntiandi 67
    [8] Satis Cognitum 13
    [9] Regulations for Doctrinal Examination - Ratio Agendi 1
    [10] To promote and safeguard the faith
    [11] Catechism of the Ukrainian Catholic Church: Christ – Our Pascha 291
    [12] Falliable Teachings and the Assistance of the Holy Spirit Reflections on the Ordinary Magisterium in Connection with the Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian page21
    [13] CCC 2050
    [14] The Sources of Catholic Dogma (Enchiridion Symbolorum) 3063
    [15] The Sources of Catholic Dogma (Enchiridion Symbolorum) 2284
    [16] Praedicate Evangelium Art. 69
    [17] 10 December 2000: Jubilee of Catechists - Homily 3


    And then a follow up question was asked,

    Does the error of the Old Catholics attempt to replace the Pope as the proximate rule of faith with static dogma?

    Yes, the error of the Old Catholics can be understood as an attempt to replace the Pope's role as the proximate rule of faith—embodied in his living magisterial authority to interpret and guard the deposit of faith—with a static conception of dogma limited to pre-Vatican I teachings, which they regard as the unalterable and exhaustive expression of the "ancient Catholic faith." This position undermines the dynamic, Spirit-guided development of doctrine under Petrine primacy, reducing the Church's teaching authority to a fixed historical corpus without the Pope's supreme interpretive function.1 2

    Historical Context of the Old Catholic Schism

    The Old Catholics emerged in the late 19th century as a direct response to the First Vatican Council's definition of papal infallibility (1870), which they denounced as an "innovation contrary to the traditional faith of the Church."1 Led by figures like Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger and Johann Friedrich von Schulte, they issued declarations rejecting the dogma and organized separate communities in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and elsewhere, convening congresses (e.g., Munich, 1871) to affirm adherence to what they called the "ancient Catholic faith" while repudiating "new dogmas."1 3They elected their own bishops, such as Joseph Hubert Reinkens in 1873, and sought state recognition in places like Prussia, Baden, and Hesse, framing themselves as the true preservers of Catholicism against "Ultramontanism"—a term they used pejoratively for the enhanced role of the Roman Pontiff.1

    In their synodal constitutions and resolutions, the Old Catholics emphasized a return to the "constitutions of the ancient Church," rejecting not only infallibility but also elements like mandatory confession, clerical celibacy, and the Roman liturgy in favor of local adaptations.1 3 Pope Pius IX condemned this in Etsi Multa (1873), accusing them of "attack[ing] and pervert[ing] the true power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff" and asserting that the Pope and bishops had "fallen into heresy" by approving Vatican I.2 They boldly claimed the Church's visible head and hierarchy had "erred," necessitating a "restoration" of a "legitimate episcopacy" outside Roman communion, which Pius IX described as entering "not by the gate but from elsewhere like a thief or robber."2

    Replacement of Proximate Rule with Static Dogma

    In Catholic theology, the proximate rule of faith is the living Magisterium—the Church's authentic teaching office, headed by the Pope—which interprets Scripture and Tradition infallibly when exercising its full authority, ensuring doctrinal unity and development "in the same sense and the same meaning" (eodem sensu eademque sententia).4 5 The Old Catholics' error inverts this by subordinating the Magisterium to a static set of dogmas they deem "harmonious with the actual consciousness of the Church," excluding any post-1870 developments as invalid innovations.1 This effectively elevates a selective, historical corpus of teachings—such as those from the early councils—above the Pope's ongoing role as the "supreme judge" and "universal teacher," who resolves faith disputes with "unshaken faith" binding the whole Church.6 7 8

    By denying papal infallibility and the indefectibility of the Church in its hierarchical teaching, the Old Catholics imply that the deposit of faith is fully captured in "static" dogmas without need for the Pope's proximate guidance.2 They reject the idea that the Roman Pontiff, as successor of Peter, holds "full power to feed, rule, and guide the universal Church," instead promoting a more democratic or synodal model where laity and local bishops hold interpretive primacy.9 2 This mirrors condemned errors like Gallicanism, which limited papal authority to mere execution of conciliar decisions, but goes further by schismatically separating to enforce their vision.4 As a result, their communities devolved toward liberal reforms, ecuмenical alliances with Protestants and Jansenists, and eventual rationalism, losing any claim to Catholic orthodoxy.1 3

    Broader Theological Implications

    This error not only fractures ecclesial unity but also contradicts the Church's teaching that dogmas are not isolated artifacts but living truths integrated within the "hierarchy of truths" and the Church's full life of worship and doctrine.5The Old Catholics' approach risks a "legal positivism" that freezes revelation, ignoring the Holy Spirit's assistance to the Magisterium for ongoing clarification amid new contexts.10 In contrast, Vatican I affirmed the Pope's primacy as essential for the Church's stability, ensuring that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail" against it.8 2 Their persistent small numbers and doctrinal drifts today (e.g., ordination of women, same-sex blessings in some branches) illustrate the instability of bypassing Petrine authority.1

    In conclusion, the Old Catholics' rejection of papal infallibility indeed seeks to supplant the Pope's dynamic role as proximate rule of faith with a static, selective dogma, leading to schism and a diminished understanding of the Church's indefectible teaching mission. This remains a cautionary example of how denying Petrine primacy fragments the faith.2

    [1] Catholic Encyclopedia Old Catholics
    [2] Etsi Multa
    [3] Catholic Encyclopedia Schism
    [4] Catholic Encyclopedia Dogma
    [5] The Interpretation of Dogma B.III.3
    [6] Catholic Encyclopedia Error
    [7] Infideles et Philosophi: Re-Reading ST II-II, q. 2, a. 2, ad 3 page13
    [8] The Bishop of Rome 3.134
    [9] The Sources of Catholic Dogma (Enchiridion Symbolorum) 3059
    [10] In the Name of Jesus Christ: A Few Historical Perspectives on the Functioning of Authority in Biblical Interpretation page25


    Angelus,


    I can only speak for myself. My husband can choose to do it as time permits. He still works.

    You and the SSPX deny dogma as dogma. The SSPX have smeared Catholics for decades that believe in the literal meaning of dogma as "Feeneyites". As far as I know, the only dogmas they have problems with are the 3 dogmas on EENS because either ABL is wrong or dogma is, so they have their (fallible) theologians tell you what the (Infallibly Defined) dogma really means. They will tell you that you have to understand the dogmas in the way "the Church itself understand it". The Infallible, immutable dogmas are the way "the Church itself understand them".

    The popes are just as subject to dogma as anyone else, in fact, their duty is to guard and defend the Deposit of Faith. For three hundred years the popes were martyred for doing it.

    This is "101" on Dogma, not for you but for the faithful being mislead by you, the SSPX and all SV trained by them. They can read what the Magisterium teaches but let's begin with the definition of heresy:



    Quote
    St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas"
     


    Quote

    The Extraordinary Magisterium

     
    Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”
     
    Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
     
    Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
     


    Quote
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм20.htm
     
    The First Vatican Council
    • 4. On faith and reason
      • 1. If anyone says that
        • in divine revelation there are contained no true mysteries properly so-called, but that
        • all the dogmas of the faith can be understood and demonstrated by properly trained reason from natural principles:
    let him be anathema.
      • 2. If anyone says that
        • human studies are to be treated with such a degree of liberty that their assertions may be maintained as true even when they are opposed to divine revelation, and that
        • they may not be forbidden by the church:
    let him be anathema.
      • 3. If anyone says that
        • it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands:
    let him be anathema.
    • And so in the performance of our supreme pastoral office, we beseech for the love of Jesus Christ and we command, by the authority of him who is also our God and saviour, all faithful Christians, especially those in authority or who have the duty of teaching, that they contribute their zeal and labour to the warding off and elimination of these errors from the church and to the spreading of the light of the pure faith.
    • But since it is not enough to avoid the contamination of heresy unless those errors are carefully shunned which approach it in greater or less degree, we warn all of their duty to observe the constitutions and decrees in which such wrong opinions, though not expressly mentioned in this docuмent, have been banned and forbidden by this holy see.


    Quote

    Emphasis mine


    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius10/p10moath.htm

    Pope Pius X - 1910
    THE OATH AGAINST MODERNISM
    To be sworn to by all clergy, pastors, confessors, preachers, religious superiors, and professors in philosophical-theological seminaries.

    I . . . . firmly embrace and accept each and every definition that has been set forth and declared by the unerring teaching authority of the Church, especially those principal truths which are directly opposed to the errors of this day. And first of all, I profess that God, the origin and end of all things, can be known with certainty by the natural light of reason from the created world (see Rom. 1:19), that is, from the visible works of creation, as a cause from its effects, and that, therefore, his existence can also be demonstrated: Secondly, I accept and acknowledge the external proofs of revelation, that is, divine acts and especially miracles and prophecies as the surest signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion and I hold that these same proofs are well adapted to the understanding of all eras and all men, even of this time. Thirdly, I believe with equally firm faith that the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time. Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely. Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source. By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord.

    Furthermore, with due reverence, I submit and adhere with my whole heart to the condemnations, declarations, and all the prescripts contained in the encyclical Pascendi and in the decree Lamentabili,especially those concerning what is known as the history of dogmas. I also reject the error of those who say that the faith held by the Church can contradict history, and that Catholic dogmas, in the sense in which they are now understood, are irreconcilable with a more realistic view of the origins of the Christian religion. I also condemn and reject the opinion of those who say that a well-educated Christian assumes a dual personality-that of a believer and at the same time of a historian, as if it were permissible for a historian to hold things that contradict the faith of the believer, or to establish premises which, provided there be no direct denial of dogmas, would lead to the conclusion that dogmas are either false or doubtful. Likewise, I reject that method of judging and interpreting Sacred Scripture which, departing from the tradition of the Church, the analogy of faith, and the norms of the Apostolic See, embraces the misrepresentations of the rationalists and with no prudence or restraint adopts textual criticism as the one and supreme norm.

    Furthermore, I reject the opinion of those who hold that a professor lecturing or writing on a historico-theological subject should first put aside any preconceived opinion about the supernatural origin of Catholic tradition or about the divine promise of help to preserve all revealed truth forever; and that they should then interpret the writings of each of the Fathers solely by scientific principles, excluding all sacred authority, and with the same liberty of judgment that is common in the investigation of all ordinary historical docuмents.

    Finally, I declare that I am completely opposed to the error of the modernists who hold that there is nothing divine in sacred tradition; or what is far worse, say that there is, but in a pantheistic sense, with the result that there would remain nothing but this plain simple fact-one to be put on a par with the ordinary facts of history-the fact, namely, that a group of men by their own labor, skill, and talent have continued through subsequent ages a school begun by Christ and his apostles. I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles. The purpose of this is, then, not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems better and more suited to the culture of each age; rather, that the absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different, may never be understood in any other way.
    I promise that I shall keep all these articles faithfully, entirely, and sincerely, and guard them inviolate, in no way deviating from them in teaching or in any way in word or in writing. Thus I promise, this I swear, so help me God. . .
     

    St. Pius X said that the goal of Modernism is the destruction of dogma which was also the goal of Vatican II.

    And Lastly,


    Quote
    St. Paul
    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
    [Galatians 1:8]








    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1393
    • Reputation: +907/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #38 on: December 09, 2025, 03:18:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, those theological opinions (BOD specifically) are NOT YET condemned.
    The major problem is the denial of EENS, that is what is heretical..not so much BOD theories (although the simple fact of the matter is that the fruit of BOD tolerance is near universal EENS denial). What seemingly 99% of trad clerics believe is that Jews,  Hindus, Muslims, etc. can be saved while being Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. That they can be saved in these false religions. Yes, they say "but not by those religions". They say those non-Catholics can be united to the "soul of the Church", but not the Body. It is all contrary to what has already been taught.

    This is just one example:

    Quote
    [The Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church

    Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino
    Council of Florence
    Pope Eugene teaches the Dogma exactly as it is to be believed.
    "Pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics" are outside of the Church.

    Pope Eugene IV makes no exceptions. Pagans, Jew, heretics, and schismatics are outside of the Church. Nice ones, mean ones, just-plain-evil ones, keep-the-natural-law good ones, are all outside of the Church, not joined to the Church, not abiding in it, not in the Church's bosom, not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body.

    As Pope Eugene IV  taught this from the Chair of Peter, we are bound to believe this as Divinely revealed

    Again (and I think this is a point that cannot be stressed enough) Pope Eugene IV, speaking from the Chair of Peter, teaches us that pagans, Jews, heretics and schismatics are outside the Church, not joined to the Church, not abiding in the Church, not in the bosom of the Church, not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body, without exception

    He does not say that a pagan, jew, etc. is outside, not joined, not abiding in, not in the bosom of, not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body now, but might not necessarily be later  if they are "invincibly ignorant" or "follow the natural law". On the contrary, he teaches that every non-Catholic is outside, not joined, not abiding in, etc. the Church as long as are non-Catholic and non-members. An "invincibly ignorant" Hindu is a Hindu 1 decade before he dies, 1 year before, 1 day before, 1 hour before, 1 second before. If that Hindu is still in the Hindu religion when he dies (as these Trad clerics claim), then he falls under the "pagans" Pope Eugene IV referenced, and is outside of the the Church, and cannot be saved!

    It is a clear denial of the Dogma for these Trad clerics to say that pagans, jew, heretics, and schismatics can be saved in their false religion by being "united" or "joined" to the "soul" of the Church, even if they try to save themselves by simultaneously saying that the non-Catholics are not saved by their false religion..because as has been taught, non-Catholics are outside, not joined to, not abiding in, not in the bosom of Church, not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body. Pope Eugene IV made clear that they are in no way "joined" or "united" to any "part" of the Church, at any time


    This part is especially important, and is a clear refutation not only of the EENS-denial, but I think also of BOD/BOB:

    Quote
    the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation
    The Council of Trent infallibly teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, though not all. Meaning that at least one is. That one is, obviously, Baptism..which is the "gateway to the spiritual life", and "holds first place among all the sacraments"

    The problem that not only EENS-deniers face, but also BOD proponents, is that those who have not received the Sacrament of Baptism are not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body (i.e. members of the body of Christ, the Church). No theologian has ever taught that BOD makes someone an actual member of the Church, as that would be contrary to infallible Church teaching (Trent Sess 14, Ch. 2, Eugene IV at Florence, Exultate Deo), teaching that was also echoed by Pius XII (Mystici Corporis, Mediator Dei), I'm sure other popes as well, but I would have to look around. Only the Sacrament of Baptism, celebrated in water, makes someone a member of the Body of Christ.

    So for the EENS deniers and BOD proponents, the problem is that Eugene IV infallibly teaches that pagans, jews, etc are in no way "united" or "joined" to the Church, and that only for those in the unity of the ecclesiastical Body do the Sacraments contribute to salvation. Those same sacraments that are necessary for salvation. Those pagans, Jews, etc. are not members of the Body, so the Sacraments cannot contribute to their salvation. The same Sacraments that are necessary for salvation!
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #39 on: December 09, 2025, 04:39:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Angelus,


    I can only speak for myself. My husband can choose to do it as time permits. He still works.

    You and the SSPX deny dogma as dogma. The SSPX have smeared Catholics for decades that believe in the literal meaning of dogma as "Feeneyites". As far as I know, the only dogmas they have problems with are the 3 dogmas on EENS because either ABL is wrong or dogma is, so they have their (fallible) theologians tell you what the (Infallibly Defined) dogma really means. They will tell you that you have to understand the dogmas in the way "the Church itself understand it". The Infallible, immutable dogmas are the way "the Church itself understand them".

    The popes are just as subject to dogma as anyone else, in fact, their duty is to guard and defend the Deposit of Faith. For three hundred years the popes were martyred for doing it.

    This is "101" on Dogma, not for you but for the faithful being mislead by you, the SSPX and all SV trained by them. They can read what the Magisterium teaches but let's begin with the definition of heresy:






    St. Pius X said that the goal of Modernism is the destruction of dogma which was also the goal of Vatican II.

    And Lastly,

    No, I don't deny Dogma as Dogma, whatever that means. And I am not a follower of the SSPX, so don't lump me in with them.

    Your husband correctly wants to uphold the true faith. But he doesn't understand that a man cannot be both a True Pope and a heretic at the same time.

    It appears that your husband thinks Prevost is the true Pope. It also appears that your husband thinks Prevost is a heretic. That is the problem. Prevost is definitely not a true Pope.

    What your husband is (unknowingly) doing is undermining the Papacy by calling a heretic "the Pope." And, the way your husband gets out of following the heretic Pope is by undermining the Dogma of Papal Infallibility. By saying that dogma is "the proximate rule of faith" rather than the True Pope, your husband uses the precise argument of the Old Catholics who were condemned by Pius IX:

    "They love to deceive the unwary and the innocent and to draw them into error by deception and hypocrisy. They repeatedly state openly that they do not in the least reject the Catholic Church and its visible head but rather that they are zealous for the purity of Catholic doctrine declaring that they are the heirs of the ancient faith and the only true Catholics. But in fact they refuse to acknowledge all the divine prerogatives of the vicar of Christ on earth and do not submit to His supreme magisterium." [Pius IX, Graves ac Diuturnae]

    Please read about the Old Catholics, so you understand what I am saying. Yes, your husband is doing what he is doing for what he thinks is the right reasons. But he doesn't understand the "collateral damage" he is doing to the Dogma of the Papacy. And he is unknowingly promoting heresy himself.

    All he has to do to correct his opinion is recognize that Prevost is the usurper that he is. He is not a true Pope, and no Catholic should listen to him. 

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48256
    • Reputation: +28488/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #40 on: December 09, 2025, 05:17:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, yeah, those terms are confusing.  I think that the distinction that Drew appears to be grasping at (and I've argued with him about this before) is the distinction between de fide divina vs. de fide ecclesiastica, but the problem is that BOTH are considered as dogma, the fomer simply having been explicitly and directly revealed, whereas the latter required a definition by the Church.  In fact, those truths revealed as de fide divina are often referred to as "dogmas proper", whereas those of the ecclesiastical variety are considered something of an extension thereof.

    But ... BOTH ARE EQUALLY CERTAIN, INFALLIBLY CERTAIN, CERTAIN WITH THE CERTAINTY OF FAITH.

    Now, dogmas refer to the CONTENT of the faith, those propositions which have been defined and have been assented to, but they are not typically referred to as a "rule of faith", proximate or remote.  RULE of faith refers to the criterion by which we can know that this here is a dogma, while that there is not a dogma, i.e. how do we discern and know what was revealed by God and what was not.

    So, the remote rule of faith is the authority of God revealing.  We know what's dogma and what isn't because ... God said so.

    Then, the proximate rule of faith is the teaching authority of the Church.  We know what's dogma and what isn't because the Church told us so, because God told us that the Church has the authority to tell us so.

    St. Augustine famously stated that he would not believe the Scriptures themselves had the authority of the Church not proposed them to him for belief.  That is why Orthodox, Prots, and others who claim that their faith derives from God's direct revelation (Scripture for Prots, Scripture + some part of Tradition for Orthodox), they cannnot have the true supernatural virtue of faith, since their formal motive of faith does not come from the infallible rule of the Church's teaching authority.  Sure, God may have revealed a truth in Scripture, but then there's the question of ... how you INTERPRET said propositions in Scripture.

    Drew is grasping for some kind of independent realm where dogmas exist on their own as some ontological entities, like those forms that exist outside of Plato's cave ... and therefore that we can reject papal teaching based on this criterion of "dogma", as if dogma is standalone and doesn't require interpretation, and as if dogma didn't become dogma in most cases because the teaching authority of the Church proposed them to us.  If one takes Drew's concepts to their logical absurdum, there's actually in his system no distinction whatsoever between when a Pope defines infallibly and solemny or when the popes teaches anything else, since DOGMA is our rule of faith, not the pope's teaching.  It's a huge load of nonense, a desperate attempt to justify the R&R position.



    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48256
    • Reputation: +28488/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #41 on: December 09, 2025, 05:34:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So for the EENS deniers and BOD proponents, the problem is that Eugene IV infallibly teaches that pagans, jews, etc are in no way "united" or "joined" to the Church, and that only for those in the unity of the ecclesiastical Body do the Sacraments contribute to salvation. Those same sacraments that are necessary for salvation. Those pagans, Jews, etc. are not members of the Body, so the Sacraments cannot contribute to their salvation. The same Sacraments that are necessary for salvation!

    Right ... BoD cannot stand up to the definition of Florence regarding how the Sacraments cannot benefit them to salvation, which is precisely the only non-openly-heretical version of BoD you can hold, namely, that the Sacrament of Baptism somehow effects salvation by operating through the desire for it.  If you denied that it did, then you are a heretic for denying the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  But, the problem is that the prospective beneficiary of BoD is not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body, since all theologians admit that one does not join the body until the actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism, i.e. that those receiving BoD are not in the Body of the Church, but somehow just attached to the soul, etc.  But if that's the case -- and it is -- then Florence dogmatically teaches that the Sacrament cannot in fact benefit them unto salvation.  Trent also teaches the same about the Sacrament of Confession, where perfect contrition on its own cannot restore a fallen soul to a state of justification, not without the intention to receive the Sacrament, since there can be no forgiveness of sin after a post-Baptismal fall without the Sacrament.  So, then, perfect contrition on its own can't restore non-Catholics to any kind of state of justification, since they cannot receive the Sacrament of Confession, nor are the unbaptized even subjec to the power of the keys, which is necessary for absolution from sin.

    Now, Msgr. Fenton at least recognized this problem, and he correctly rejected the idea that people can be saved simply be belonging to the "soul" of the Church, rejecting the notion that there can be a soul of the Church that's not co-extensive with the body, as if the animal soul of a human body can extend beyond the actual physical body itself.

    So what he does is claim that one can be IN the Body of the Church without being a PART OF the Body of the Church (i.e. a member of the Church) ... something which I've described as "Undigested Hamburger Ecclesiology".  So, what is in the body but not part of it.  Well, something like food that is IN the stomach but has not been digested and somehow converted into human tissue and made one with the body.

    But Florence destroys that as well, since it explicilty teaches that they must be in the UNITY of the Body.  Food that you put in your mouth is not PART OF your body, one with your body ... but is merely per accidens in your body.  Unity with the Body requires a substantial conformity with it, i.e. where you would have to share the body's DNA and be part of the organism, not just accidentally inside and/or somehow attached to your body.  I could also conduct some bizarre experiment where I would take the body part of an animal and sew it onto a human being (some sicko scientists have in fact done stuff like that), but that doesn't mean that it's essentially part of my body, just accidentally fused onto it.

    SVs have attacked SSPX and other R&R for their "Frankenchurch" theology, but this take "Frankenchurch" to the next level, where it's possible like Victor Frankenstein, to stitch together various disparate body parts into some monstrosity.  Is that the Body of the Church?  Ridiculous.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #42 on: December 09, 2025, 05:39:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The major problem is the denial of EENS, that is what is heretical..not so much BOD theories (although the simple fact of the matter is that the fruit of BOD tolerance is near universal EENS denial). What seemingly 99% of trad clerics believe is that Jews,  Hindus, Muslims, etc. can be saved while being Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. That they can be saved in these false religions. Yes, they say "but not by those religions". They say those non-Catholics can be united to the "soul of the Church", but not the Body. It is all contrary to what has already been taught.

    This is just one example:
    Pope Eugene teaches the Dogma exactly as it is to be believed.
    "Pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics" are outside of the Church.

    Pope Eugene IV makes no exceptions. Pagans, Jew, heretics, and schismatics are outside of the Church. Nice ones, mean ones, just-plain-evil ones, keep-the-natural-law good ones, are all outside of the Church, not joined to the Church, not abiding in it, not in the Church's bosom, not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body.

    As Pope Eugene IV  taught this from the Chair of Peter, we are bound to believe this as Divinely revealed

    Again (and I think this is a point that cannot be stressed enough) Pope Eugene IV, speaking from the Chair of Peter, teaches us that pagans, Jews, heretics and schismatics are outside the Church, not joined to the Church, not abiding in the Church, not in the bosom of the Church, not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body, without exception

    He does not say that a pagan, jew, etc. is outside, not joined, not abiding in, not in the bosom of, not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body now, but might not necessarily be later  if they are "invincibly ignorant" or "follow the natural law". On the contrary, he teaches that every non-Catholic is outside, not joined, not abiding in, etc. the Church as long as are non-Catholic and non-members. An "invincibly ignorant" Hindu is a Hindu 1 decade before he dies, 1 year before, 1 day before, 1 hour before, 1 second before. If that Hindu is still in the Hindu religion when he dies (as these Trad clerics claim), then he falls under the "pagans" Pope Eugene IV referenced, and is outside of the the Church, and cannot be saved!

    It is a clear denial of the Dogma for these Trad clerics to say that pagans, jew, heretics, and schismatics can be saved in their false religion by being "united" or "joined" to the "soul" of the Church, even if they try to save themselves by simultaneously saying that the non-Catholics are not saved by their false religion..because as has been taught, non-Catholics are outside, not joined to, not abiding in, not in the bosom of Church, not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body. Pope Eugene IV made clear that they are in no way "joined" or "united" to any "part" of the Church, at any time


    This part is especially important, and is a clear refutation not only of the EENS-denial, but I think also of BOD/BOB:
    The Council of Trent infallibly teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, though not all. Meaning that at least one is. That one is, obviously, Baptism..which is the "gateway to the spiritual life", and "holds first place among all the sacraments"

    The problem that not only EENS-deniers face, but also BOD proponents, is that those who have not received the Sacrament of Baptism are not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body (i.e. members of the body of Christ, the Church). No theologian has ever taught that BOD makes someone an actual member of the Church, as that would be contrary to infallible Church teaching (Trent Sess 14, Ch. 2, Eugene IV at Florence, Exultate Deo), teaching that was also echoed by Pius XII (Mystici Corporis, Mediator Dei), I'm sure other popes as well, but I would have to look around. Only the Sacrament of Baptism, celebrated in water, makes someone a member of the Body of Christ.

    So for the EENS deniers and BOD proponents, the problem is that Eugene IV infallibly teaches that pagans, jews, etc are in no way "united" or "joined" to the Church, and that only for those in the unity of the ecclesiastical Body do the Sacraments contribute to salvation. Those same sacraments that are necessary for salvation. Those pagans, Jews, etc. are not members of the Body, so the Sacraments cannot contribute to their salvation. The same Sacraments that are necessary for salvation!

    What you say is absolutely true for "salvation," which means going straight to Heaven without a stop in any other abode after death. No one, who is not a baptized member of the Church has the chance "to benefit from the ecclesiastical sacraments and fasting, almsgiving and other offices of piety and exercises of the Christian soldiery that bring forth eternal rewards." These things prepare the white garment of the soul. And they are only available to Catholics. 

    However, not all who are outside the Church will burn in Hell forever and never make it to Paradise. In fact, even most Catholics will suffer "the fires of Hell" in Purgatory for a long time before entering Paradise. 

    The point is that there are other temporary places for those non-saved souls are "detained," and we shouldn't lose sight of that fact. Aquinas speaks of five places:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q69.A7

    I answer that, The abodes of souls are distinguished according to the souls’ various states. Now the soul united to a mortal body is in the state of meriting, while the soul separated from the body is in the state of receiving good or evil for its merits; so that after death it is either in the state of receiving its final reward, or in the state of being hindered from receiving it. If it is in the state of receiving its final retribution, this happens in two ways: either as to good, and then it is paradise; or as to evil, and thus as regards actual sin it is hell, and as regards original sin it is the limbo of children. On the other hand, if it be in the state where it is hindered from receiving its final reward, this is either on account of a defect of the person, and thus we have purgatory, where souls are detained from receiving their reward at once on account of the sins they have committed, or else it is on account of a defect of nature, and thus we have the limbo of the fathers, where the fathers were detained from obtaining glory on account of the guilt of human nature, which could not yet be expiated.

    Here is what Aquinas says about the Limbo of Hell (aka the limbo of the fathers, or Abraham's Bosom), which is where those who were "just according to the natural law" ended up:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q69.A4

    I answer that, After death men’s souls cannot find rest save by the merit of faith, because he that comes to God must believe(Heb 11:6). Now the first example of faith was given to men in the person of Abraham, who was the first to sever himself from the body of unbelievers, and to receive a special sign of faith: for which reason the place of rest given to men after death is called Abraham’s bosom, as Augustine declares (On the Literal Meaning of Genesis12).

    But the souls of the saints have not at all times had the same rest after death; because since Christ’s coming they have had complete rest through enjoying the vision of God, whereas before Christ’s coming they had rest through being exempt from punishment, but their desire was not set at rest by their attaining their end. Consequently, the state of the saints before Christ’s coming may be considered both as regards the rest it afforded, and thus it is called Abraham’s bosom, and as regards its lack of rest, and thus it is called the limbo of hell.

    Accordingly, before Christ’s coming the limbo of hell and Abraham’s bosom were one place accidentally and not essentially: and consequently, nothing prevents Abraham’s bosom from remaining after Christ’s coming and from being altogether distinct from limbo, since things that are one accidentally may be parted from one another.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48256
    • Reputation: +28488/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #43 on: December 09, 2025, 05:52:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What you say is absolutely true for "salvation," which means going straight to Heaven without a stop in any other abode after death. 

    :facepalm: ... just when I thought I had heard it all.  No, that's not what salvation means.  Whether a soul goes straight to Heaven or else has to make a stop in Purgatory first, both end up on a state of salvation.

    It's absurd the desperation to which the heretic EENS-rejectors will resort, to a literal Clintonesque "it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is".

    There is no salvation outside the Church.  BoDer:  that depends on what the meaning of "is" is.  :facepalm:

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48256
    • Reputation: +28488/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #44 on: December 09, 2025, 06:02:01 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • However, not all who are outside the Church will burn in Hell forever and never make it to Paradise. In fact, even most Catholics will suffer "the fires of Hell" in Purgatory for a long time before entering Paradise.

    Yeah, so now you engage in a play of words where those outside the Church are not saved and go to Hell only in the sense that they god to the "fires of Hell" in Purgatory.  These heretics never cease to amaze me with their lies and mendacity.

    While, some theologians claim that the fires of Purgatory and the fires of Hell are the same fires (I dispute this), Purgatory and Hell are two completely different places, where those in Purgatgory are in a state of justification, are friends with God, and are in a state of grace, whereas those in Hell are not.

    But, then, again, you don't bother to read the Church's dogmatic definition at Florence.

    Let's try again:
    Quote
    It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives;

    So, yeah, those outside the Church will burn in Hell forever, and not the temporary "Hell" that you've just redefined as Purgatory.  See that term there above, "everlasting", you know, the fire where the devils are ... or do you believe the devils are in Purgatory and will also eventually get out?  At that point, you're on track to sllide into a different heresy, that of Origen, and revived by Bergoglio here, where in the end, everyone will be converted and enter union with God, all the wicked, and even the devils.

    This is the kindof crap that causes steam to practically come out of my ears, it's so stupid, and such a pack of lies, distortions, and fallacies ... that it can only come from the diseased mind of someone who absolute refuses to accept the Church's dogmatic teaching, but then whose tortured conscience will attempt just about anything to claim they actually believe it by completely redefining the meaning of the words, the terms, the concepts ... so they can pay lip service to it, but then what they actually affirm in their intellects is the exact opposite of what the Church was actually teaching here.

    Yeah, when the Church says "salvation", it's referring only to those who bypassed Purgatory.  When the Church says "Hell", she really means Purgatory.  When the Church says "everlasting fire prepared for the devil", she really means "temporary fire prepared for the just".  When the Church says "is", she really means ...  When the Church says "is no", she really means "is".  If you don't believe that non-Catholics CAN be saved, then you're a heretic who rejects Church teaching, since we have to understand dogma as the Church understands it, or, rather, I say the Church underestand it, meaning that you're a heretic if you don't accept me as your rule of faith.

    You have to be almost certifiably insane to spew this nonsense out there.  No, salvation means what everyone understand by salvation.  No, the everlasting fires prepared for the devil and his angels really is Hell, and not Purgatory.  Yes, "is" does in fact mean "is", and "is no" does not mean "is".