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Author Topic: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints  (Read 8934 times)

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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2023, 10:40:09 AM »
In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death. 

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
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Offline AnthonyPadua

  • Supporter
Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2023, 11:06:08 AM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 14, 2023, 10:40:09 AM
In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
Not exactly
Quote
immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above,
 
since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise,
It depends on if the old saints need to be purified? And if baptism falls under purification?

Hmm what about the Saints being seen in the city as per Matthew 27:52-53? Did these saints use their bodies again and lose them when entering heaven? Or was their appearance just their soul?
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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2023, 11:07:11 AM »
Quote from: moneil on June 14, 2023, 09:11:23 AM
Elias (Elijah) the prophet was taken up to heaven: 4 Kings 2:1-11.  Elias then appeared bodily next to Our Lord at the Transfiguration: St. Matthew 17:2-3.
But that is not the heaven of the Blessed; were Elias to fully enjoy the Beatific Vision, then be stripped of it, that would be hell.  I have read that some of the fathers believed that Enoch and Elias are being preserved in the Garden of Eden, which for us could be called Heaven on Earth.  We know that Eden still exists because God placed an angel to guard its entrance. 
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2023, 11:09:42 AM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 14, 2023, 10:40:09 AM
In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
Interestingly, the pope also says in this definition that the beatific vision "does away with" faith and hope (insofar as they are theological virtues) since there is no more need for them. I believe this question came up on another thread recently. If someone dies justified, according to this ex cathedra statement, their soul immediately goes to Heaven where it no longer needs faith or hope (which baptism infuses). 
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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: New video from mhfm on baptism of the old testament saints
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2023, 11:09:52 AM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on June 14, 2023, 11:07:11 AM
But that is not the heaven of the Blessed; were Elias to fully enjoy the Beatific Vision, then be stripped of it, that would be hell.  I have read that some of the fathers believed that Enoch and Elias are being preserved in the Garden of Eden, which for us could be called Heaven on Earth.  We know that Eden still exists because God placed an angel to guard its entrance.
But couldn't it have been destroyed in the flood?
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