Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: AnthonyPadua on June 11, 2023, 09:29:18 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBpm_ipT9Sk
Despite the controversy this group has, I still like to consider the points they present. Plus this idea that the old testament saints could have been baptised is not new to me.
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Very solid video. I've been pointing this out for years, but they bring a lot of evidence to back it up.
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My problem is, the souls of the Just in Limbo only ascended into heaven with their souls, not their bodies; meaning that their souls were united to their bodies for a time immediately after the Resurrection - and only a human person can receive baptism, not a soul divorced from its body - and then these (holy people) were baptized, but then only their souls ascended into heaven. This is all to say that the holy souls are all in heaven, but their holy bodies must be somewhere on earth, awaiting the General Resurrection. It is my understanding that the only two persons (body and soul) who are dogmatically in heaven are Christ and his Blessed Mother.
Not even the great St. Joseph is in heaven body and soul. It is my private opinion that the body of St. Joseph will be discovered during the reign of the antichrist, or immediately preceding the reign of Mary. Hopefully this makes sense and I have not spoken in error, but this is Catholic theology as I have understood it. Very interesting video though. Thanks
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According to Jone, section 460, "The recipient of a Sacrament must be in the wayfaring state..." [emphasis original]
The wayfaring state is a rather odd way of saying someone must be alive, i.e., in the state of a traveler in this world.
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It is my understanding that the only two persons (body and soul) who are dogmatically in heaven are Christ and his Blessed Mother.
Elias (Elijah) the prophet was taken up to heaven: 4 Kings 2:1-11. Elias then appeared bodily next to Our Lord at the Transfiguration: St. Matthew 17:2-3.
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In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
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In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
Not exactly
immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above,
since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise,
It depends on if the old saints need to be purified? And if baptism falls under purification?
Hmm what about the Saints being seen in the city as per Matthew 27:52-53? Did these saints use their bodies again and lose them when entering heaven? Or was their appearance just their soul?
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Elias (Elijah) the prophet was taken up to heaven: 4 Kings 2:1-11. Elias then appeared bodily next to Our Lord at the Transfiguration: St. Matthew 17:2-3.
But that is not the heaven of the Blessed; were Elias to fully enjoy the Beatific Vision, then be stripped of it, that would be hell. I have read that some of the fathers believed that Enoch and Elias are being preserved in the Garden of Eden, which for us could be called Heaven on Earth. We know that Eden still exists because God placed an angel to guard its entrance.
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In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
Interestingly, the pope also says in this definition that the beatific vision "does away with" faith and hope (insofar as they are theological virtues) since there is no more need for them. I believe this question came up on another thread recently. If someone dies justified, according to this ex cathedra statement, their soul immediately goes to Heaven where it no longer needs faith or hope (which baptism infuses).
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But that is not the heaven of the Blessed; were Elias to fully enjoy the Beatific Vision, then be stripped of it, that would be hell. I have read that some of the fathers believed that Enoch and Elias are being preserved in the Garden of Eden, which for us could be called Heaven on Earth. We know that Eden still exists because God placed an angel to guard its entrance.
But couldn't it have been destroyed in the flood?
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Interestingly, the pope also says in this definition that the beatific vision "does away with" faith and hope (insofar as they are theological virtues) since there is no more need for them. I believe this question came up on another thread recently. If someone dies justified, according to this ex cathedra statement, their soul immediately goes to Heaven where it no longer needs faith or hope (which baptism infuses).
Yeah, when you can see God you can't have faith. As faith is to believe what you cannot see. And who hopes to attain what they already have?
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In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
But consider the story of St. Peter Claver and the negro girl, Augustina (I believe was her name). She died and at her Particular Judgment she was told that she could not enter heaven because she had not received baptism. St. Peter Claver then raised her to life, baptized her, and she was able to go to heaven. So in this particular example, as we understand it, Augustina had an opportunity for justification after death.
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Not exactlyIt depends on if the old saints need to be purified? And if baptism falls under purification?
Hmm what about the Saints being seen in the city as per Matthew 27:52-53? Did these saints use their bodies again and lose them when entering heaven? Or was their appearance just their soul?
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Very good questions. I think Benedictus Deus forbids us from saying that such are "in the wayfaring state", as Yeti/Jone put it. Most likely, I would guess God clothes their soul with a body in a similar way to how he clothed the archangel Raphael, or the angels he sent to warn Lot. In neither case is the person seen truly hylomorphic, at least not with their *own* body.
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But consider the story of St. Peter Claver and the negro girl, Augustina (I believe was her name). She died and at her Particular Judgment she was told that she could not enter heaven because she had not received baptism. St. Peter Claver then raised her to life, baptized her, and she was able to go to heaven. So in this particular example, as we understand it, Augustina had an opportunity for justification after death.
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I'm familiar with this story and others like it; but Benedictus Deus is very simple and clear and I don't think allows for such a situation-- ergo my use of the expression "actual" death. I think such people were probably comatose (often mistaken for death) and received a vision, followed by a miraculous resuscitation.
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But consider the story of St. Peter Claver and the negro girl, Augustina (I believe was her name). She died and at her Particular Judgment she was told that she could not enter heaven because she had not received baptism. St. Peter Claver then raised her to life, baptized her, and she was able to go to heaven. So in this particular example, as we understand it, Augustina had an opportunity for justification after death.
Of course assuming that it's a true story, it is a person under the new law. While it's a nice piece for EENS and water baptism, it's not infallible and doesn't help too much for the old law.
Still it's icing on the cake for me at least.
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I'm familiar with this story and others like it; but Benedictus Deus is very simple and clear and I don't think allows for such a situation-- ergo my use of the expression "actual" death. I think such people were probably comatose (often mistaken for death) and received a vision, followed by a miraculous resuscitation.
But if she needed purification? Does purification have a strict definition? I.e purgatory only is purification? Or does baptism fall into it as well similar to it being a rebirth?
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My problem is, the souls of the Just in Limbo only ascended into heaven with their souls, not their bodies; meaning that their souls were united to their bodies for a time immediately after the Resurrection - and only a human person can receive baptism, not a soul divorced from its body - and then these (holy people) were baptized, but then only their souls ascended into heaven. This is all to say that the holy souls are all in heaven, but their holy bodies must be somewhere on earth, awaiting the General Resurrection. It is my understanding that the only two persons (body and soul) who are dogmatically in heaven are Christ and his Blessed Mother.
Not even the great St. Joseph is in heaven body and soul. It is my private opinion that the body of St. Joseph will be discovered during the reign of the antichrist, or immediately preceding the reign of Mary. Hopefully this makes sense and I have not spoken in error, but this is Catholic theology as I have understood it. Very interesting video though. Thanks
I believe that these individual were baptized and then died again, awaiting the final Resurrection. We absolutely have the testimony of the Sacred Scriptures themselves indicating that many of the just came out from their tombs after Our Lord's Resurrection. Presumably they all died again.
But it's not dogma that ONLY Christ and Our Blessed Mother are in heaven body and soul. Enoch and Elijah are thought to be there, and many of the Fathers held (and I agree) that St. Joseph was also assumed into Heaven, that Our Lord raised him back to life, baptized him, and then assumed him into Heaven.
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While NCR is generally a Modernist rag, this is a good article about St. Joseph being assumed into Heaven:
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/was-st-joseph-assumed-into-heaven-here-s-what-the-saints-say
“St. Joseph, then, is in heaven in body and soul,” wrote St. Francis de Sales. “There is no doubt of it.”
I agree.
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Benedictus Deus says those who are pure enough to enter Heaven immediately do so, while those who die in sin go immediately to Hell; it distinguishes between these types and those who require additional purification.
Hence, it might allow for someone who would otherwise require purgatorial fire to instead be sent back to earth. But that would mean the person was already justified, rather than reprobate. If they were reprobate, they would just immediately go to Hell. If they require further purification that means they're justified, just not justified enough. And they would be counted among the blessed no matter how their additional purification was experienced.
Do we wish to argue that anyone who dies justified having not received water baptism is purified by water baptism after death but before entering Heaven? I suppose we could, but that sounds just like "regular" BOD, just with an extra step.
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I believe that these individual were baptized and then died again, awaiting the final Resurrection. We absolutely have the testimony of the Sacred Scriptures themselves indicating that many of the just came out from their tombs after Our Lord's Resurrection. Presumably they all died again.
But it's not dogma that ONLY Christ and Our Blessed Mother are in heaven body and soul. Enoch and Elijah are thought to be there, and many of the Fathers held (and I agree) that St. Joseph was also assumed into Heaven, that Our Lord raised him back to life, baptized him, and then assumed him into Heaven.
That is correct, it is not dogma that only Our Lady and Our Lord are in heaven body and soul. I should have made it clear in my previous post. I read a book based on the writings of four credible mystics from which I received that opinion. It could be that Enoch and Elias are in heaven, either way it does not matter to me. I know one of the fathers wrote that both Enoch and Elias will be consecrated bishops, so necessarily they will be baptized when the time comes. Yes, I have contemplated St. Joseph in the same vein, but I often wonder if St. Joseph will not be baptized on the Last Day along with many others. The sacrament of baptism ends when time ends, and that would seemingly happen when the Last Day comes to a close and eternity begins.
Thanks Lad for the St. Joseph article, I will give it a read. I have never seen this St. Francis de Sales quote, I am interested to read the article.
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Thanks Lad for the St. Joseph article, I will give it a read. I have never seen this St. Francis de Sales quote, I am interested to read the article.
Apart from the theological reasons adduced by these saints who held this, I find it extremely telling that we have no 1st Class Relics of St. Joseph anywhere.
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Apart from the theological reasons adduced by these saints who held this, I find it extremely telling that we have no 1st Class Relics of St. Joseph anywhere.
Yes, I agree, the absence of relics does suggest these saintly theories correct. But if I recall we have no 1st Class relics of St. John the Beloved either. Of course it could be that St. John is in heaven body and soul as well as St. Joseph. My theory is that since Mary is the mother of the Mystical Body of Christ, she was the first baptized; since St. Joseph is the father of the Mystical Body of Christ, he will be the last baptized. I base this only upon my "feelings," and Bp. Williamson would call me out on it!
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Yes, I agree, the absence of relics does suggest these saintly theories correct. But if I recall we have no 1st Class relics of St. John the Beloved either. Of course it could be that St. John is in heaven body and soul as well as St. Joseph. My theory is that since Mary is the mother of the Mystical Body of Christ, she was the first baptized; since St. Joseph is the father of the Mystical Body of Christ, he will be the last baptized. I base this only upon my "feelings," and Bp. Williamson would call me out on it!
Bp. Williamson also succuмbs to his feelings contrary to reason at times. Such as when he said Wojtyla and Ratzinger are "sincere" and "good persons." Two of the most evil men to ever walk the earth.
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In Benedictus Deus, pope Benedict XII solemnly defined that the souls of the just and of the reprobate are judged and given their reward/punishment upon death with no delay. The pope seems to have rather carefully avoided saying anything about the body (other than affirming it will be joined to the soul at the eschaton). Nevertheless, this solemn definition seems to more or less preclude any additional opportunities for justification after actual death.
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
Hi, Mith. I agree with you if the Latin equivalent of "with no delay" or "immediately," which is the word used in the English translation, appeared in the Latin text. However, I checked my copy of BD in my later edition of Denzinger which has the Latin text (picture attached), and the operative word in Latin seems to be "mox."
I'm no Latinist by any means - I can only pray the Rosary in it and have some knowledge from the Missal and my interlinear DR/Vulgate New Testament - but when I checked available Latin dictionaries it seems that "mox" can mean merely "soon" or "shortly thereafter," and not necessarily "with no delay" or "immediately."
Perhaps Lad or someone who knows Latin can comment.
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My opinion is St Joesph ascended into heaven. Enoch and Elias aren’t dead so they are somewhere on earth (some say the Garden of Eden) to await the End Times.
St John the Apostle is also not dead (his body is not in the tomb at Ephesus). The apparition at Knock shows St John in Bishop’s attire and preaching, while holding an open book (probably the apocalypse). So he will also come back in the End Times. And he may also be in Eden.
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Hi, Mith. I agree with you if the Latin equivalent of "with no delay" or "immediately," which is the word used in the English translation, appeared in the Latin text. However, I checked my copy of BD in my later edition of Denzinger which has the Latin text (picture attached), and the operative word in Latin seems to be "mox."
I'm no Latinist by any means - I can only pray the Rosary in it and have some knowledge from the Missal and my interlinear DR/Vulgate New Testament - but when I checked available Latin dictionaries it seems that "mox" can mean merely "soon" or "shortly thereafter," and not necessarily "with no delay" or "immediately."
Perhaps Lad or someone who knows Latin can comment.
Yes, "mox" means "soon", but I think the context makes it clear that he means, basically right away, perhaps after their particular judgment, etc. In the passage about those who are saved, he distinguishes between those who have no sin left and those who requires some purgation, using the term "mox" of the former, so I think that immediately or right away would be a good translation. It has the sense of "the next step for them is ...".
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Yes, "mox" means "soon", but I think the context makes it clear that he means, basically right away, perhaps after their particular judgment, etc. In the passage about those who are saved, he distinguishes between those who have no sin left and those who requires some purgation, using the term "mox" of the former, so I think that immediately or right away would be a good translation. It has the sense of "the next step for them is ...".
Thanks.