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Nadie,

I am taking your advice you just gave to another to post a separate topic so it would be easier for you to see and answer. So far, it is like pulling teeth to get a simple answer out of you on this, and I have asked multiple times, where you still reply in the same thread but avoid answering.

Do you reject what the Catechism of the Council of Trent taught about how adults may die by accident before receiving water baptism and still be saved?

Dear Cupertino,

Let's deal in reality, the reality is that you don't really believe that desire for baptism is necessary to save a non-Catholic. So, you are only fooling yourself by calling it baptism of desire. What is the point of debating about the desire for baptism of a catechumen, when people like you don't even believe that desire is necessary to save non-Catholics?

So much for explicit desire to be a baptized Catholic, or a catechumen, or a martyr (baptism of blood), anyone can be saved in your belief system!

Your Belief system is Schizophrenic

The Fathers were unanimously against BOD of the catechumen. The Fathers and St. Thomas, and St. Alphonsus are all against invincible ignorance being salvific, and against implicit faith. They were also opposed to any implicit desire that did not explicitly include a desire to be a Catholic. Therefore, your belief system pits your very own sources of evidence one against the other, your beliefs are schizophrenic. You only quote St. Thomas when he suits you, and ignore him when he opposes your beliefs.

Quote from: nadieimportante

Quote from: Cupertino

Nadie, your position is patently absurd. I don't need to write much, nor scream my words, as you do.

Everyone knows and accepts the solemn teaching there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Quotes have been given for that here.

It is also known that anyone who calls into doubt solemn teaching has fallen away completely from the Faith.

Nadie, your position makes the Catechism of the Council of Trent, St. Alphonsus Liguouri and Pius IX all call into doubt previous solemn teaching...but nobody in the whole Church noticed, and it was never an issue!!

You are smarter than them all! Your position is absurd.

Below is quoted a previous posting response which sums up my position on baptism of desire of the catechumen, and baptism of blood. My position is clear, it is out in the light for all to see.

Your position on the other hand is hidden, either due to ignorance, or on purpose, I can't judge hearts.

Cupertino said: "Everyone knows and accepts the solemn teaching there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (EENS). Quotes have been given for that here."

Nadie answers: All the quotes on EENS were posted by me.

Cupertino said: It is also known that anyone who calls into doubt solemn teaching has fallen away completely from the Faith.

Nadie responds: Yes, EENS is dogmatic, and anyone who calls it into doubt has completely lost the faith

Cupertino said Nadie, your position makes the Catechism of the Council of Trent, St. Alphonsus Liguouri and Pius IX all call into doubt previous solemn teaching...but nobody in the whole Church noticed, and it was never an issue!!

Nadie responds: That is a perfect example of Protestant self opinion on your part. Not one authoritative quote from you, just your opinions. Are we supposed to take your word for it?

What previous "solemn teaching", dogmatic teaching, that can't be denied, are you referring too? Not even BOD of the catechumen has been solemnly declared, infallible declared, nor declared by the universal ordinary magisterium! More importantly, you have not clearly limited your "baptism of desire", to the (only real) baptism of desire which finds support from St. Alphonsus Ligouri, and St. Thomas. You are hiding behind baptism of desire of the catechumen,  of the Catechism of Trent, St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus, when you really believe in all the MUTANT false forms, which are actually opposed by The Catechism of Trent, St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus. Read below, and come out into the light and explain yourself.

Quote from: nadieimportante

Quote from: curiouscatholic23

Question for Nadie:

Were there not many and numerous medieval saints who believed in baptism of blood and desire? According to your logic, they would had to have been heretics.

Don't mix baptism of blood with baptism of desire of the catechumen, and all the other modern offshoots of it. That is just a tactic to FIND the support of some saints. A few saints don't make doctrine. Read all the dogmatic decrees I posted, not one mention of an excuse like BOD or BOB, not one in the history of the Church.

 There are maybe like 10 examples of baptism of blood saints in the 2000 year history. Not one can be proved not to have been baptized. Now, there are thousands upon thousands of examples of people who are incomprehensible just hanging on to life for the longest time, then they are baptized and immediately die. Fr. DeSmet  details thousands of such infant and elderly baptisms he administered himself in his book written in the 1850's. There are hundreds of examples of people sent back from the dead just to be baptized.

Why would God not provide any examples of baptism of blood except like 10 back 1800 years ago, and then God provides hundreds of thousands of examples of persons who scarcely held on to life and died by the groves (as described by Fr. Smet), immediately upon being baptized? Why would God provide so many examples of people sent back from the dead just to be baptized?

That's baptism of blood, and as for baptism of desire of the catechumen (forget all the other offshoots of it, they have no support from the medieval saints )there is not one single example in 2000 years.

Read all the dogmatic decrees I posted, not one mention of an excuse like BOD or BOB, not one in the history of the Church. Catholics follow dogma, not a story here and there over 2000 years.

As for calling anyone a heretic, I don't do that, not for BOB or BOD of the catechumen.  If a person wants to believe in baptism of blood, it's no big deal, a non-baptized person who dies wanting to be a baptized Catholic, where are they? I've never seen one. BOD of the catechumen, how many catechumens who died before being baptized can there be? One hear one there? Those theoretical loopholes, are not the problem, the problem is today that there are scarcely any believers in BOD and BOB that restrict their belief to just baptism of blood and baptism of desire of the catechumen, ALL of them believe in all the other offshoots to different levels, offshoots like implicit desire of those that don't even want to be Catholics or baptized, implicit faith, invincible ignorance, an invisible church that includes non-Catholic "good" people, and universal salvation for all. THAT IS THE PROBLEM, that seed brought us the false ecuмenism of Assisi, and Vatican II, what Catholics believe today, that basically outside of the church there IS salvation. That's the root cause of why we are in the predicament that we are in.

 :applause:  :applause:

When I asked the question in the other thread you said you wouldn't answer until I explained my "brand" of BOD, which implies both that you didn't, and that you would once I fulfilled that requirement. Now you say you did answer it before, and won't now.

You spend all you time typing and pasting information when all you have to do is say YES, or say NO to whether you accept the Catechism of the Council of Trent's teaching about how it is possible for a catechumen to be saved if he accidentally dies before being baptized with water.

I say YES. Very easy.

What do you say?

Nadie,

I am taking your advice you just gave to another to post a separate topic so it would be easier for you to see and answer. So far, it is like pulling teeth to get a simple answer out of you on this, and I have asked multiple times, where you still reply in the same thread but avoid answering.

Do you reject what the Catechism of the Council of Trent taught about how adults may die by accident before receiving water baptism and still be saved?