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Author Topic: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?  (Read 3047 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2019, 01:01:47 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 09, 2019, 12:33:05 PM
Exactly.  That is what St Justin is saying, that Christ revealed Himself to Plato, just as Abraham was told about the Redeemer.  Just as God miraculously sent St Peter to Cornelius in Scripture.  Just as Blessed Mary of Agreda bilocated to preach to the American Indians.  Just like St Thomas the Apostle was miraculously transported from India to see the Assumption of Our Lady with the rest of the Apostles.  Just as St Padre Pio was transported to hear a dying man's confession who was on some remote snowy mountain.
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Our Faith tells us, and so does Scripture, that "God's hand is not shortened to save..."  (Isaiah)
Are you saying that Christ revealed Himself to Plato *before his death?*  If so, I mean... sure, he could have done that, but St. Justin doesn't say that, and at least seems to presume the possibility that he didn't.

I agree, of course, that anyone who is in Heaven has knowledge *now.*  There are no Protestants in heaven.  No Muslims.  No Buddhists.  No Hindus.  No Eastern Orthodox.  IF somehow any people who lived their lives as such were saved, despite their religions, they are certainly Catholic NOW.

The issue, as far as I understood it, was whether every soul had to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation IN THIS LIFE in order to be saved, or if a soul who was invincibly ignorant of the Trinity and the Incarnation *COULD* be saved if they followed the natural law, etc.  While I realize in the Old Covenant the level of knowledge required would've been different, it seems like the same principles Justin Martyr applies to Socrates, if accurate, COULD be applied to certain invincibly ignorant individuals after the coming of Christ *unless* there's something that I'm missing.

The more I get into this, the more I'm seeing that its a super complex issue because the exact terminology you use, at every point, matters.  
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2019, 01:20:11 PM »
Quote
Are you saying that Christ revealed Himself to Plato *before his death?* 
Yes, that's what the article I posted says.  The article has additional quotes from St Justin which refers to this.

Quote
I agree, of course, that anyone who is in Heaven has knowledge *now.*  There are no Protestants in heaven.  No Muslims.  No Buddhists.  No Hindus.  No Eastern Orthodox.  IF somehow any people who lived their lives as such were saved, despite their religions, they are certainly Catholic NOW.
We must say they had knowledge BEFORE THEY DIED.  We must say, per Catholic doctrine, that they left their false religions and became Catholic BEFORE DEATH.

Quote
The issue, as far as I understood it, was whether every soul had to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation IN THIS LIFE in order to be saved, or if a soul who was invincibly ignorant of the Trinity and the Incarnation *COULD* be saved if they followed the natural law, etc. 

If they followed the natural law only, but did not know of the Faith, they would go to Limbo.  If they followed the natural law, and God revealed to them the Faith, and they believed, they could be saved.  The New Testament has the additional requirement of baptism, in addition to Faith.
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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2019, 10:54:01 PM »
Can you show me where St Justin says it definitely happened before their deaths?  I don't see where he says that. 
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2019, 12:05:20 AM »
The article posted is the extent that I will research this matter.  St Justin is making an argument (opinion).  It’s not some doctrinal statement. 
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Justin Martyr, heretic on EENS?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2019, 04:47:04 AM »
Justin Martyr was not teaching anything contrary to what Ladislus said, Justin Martyr is teaching about those people who went to Paradise, Limbo of the Patriarchs, not Heaven. Read below:



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re: “Today you shall be with me in paradise” Was the thief on the cross baptised? Was he saved?

The good thief was under the old covenant. He did not go directly to heaven, he went to the same place as Adam, Eve, Abraham, and the Holy Innocents all of which were not under the obligation of being baptized to be saved. Heaven was not opened till the Resurrection of Our Lord.

From The Catechism of Trent: Baptism Made Obligatory After Christ's Resurrection

The second period to be distinguished, that is, the time when the law of Baptism was made, also admits of no doubt. Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave to His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.




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