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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 41841 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #240 on: August 29, 2022, 05:27:17 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 28, 2022, 05:48:28 PM
No.  I didn't save the information.  Just read it after he posted it.

The reason I ask is that I have substantial doubt that even the only theologian (Cano) who seems to have distinguished between justification and salvation in a way that could possibly support your position even considered the Session of Trent on justification in formulating his opinion. I would wager that, in the work where Cano discusses justification, he doesn't even take into account Trent's "opinion" (whatever it is in fullness) on the subject. I'm sure you would agree that would detract from any weight his opinion had. 

I can get into this more later, but I think Cano expressed his views on justification in his book, Relectio de sacramentis genera.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #241 on: August 29, 2022, 07:11:12 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on August 29, 2022, 05:27:17 AM
The reason I ask is that I have substantial doubt that even the only theologian (Cano) who seems to have distinguished between justification and salvation in a way that could possibly support your position even considered the Session of Trent on justification in formulating his opinion. I would wager that, in the work where Cano discusses justification, he doesn't even take into account Trent's "opinion" (whatever it is in fullness) on the subject. I'm sure you would agree that would detract from any weight his opinion had.

I can get into this more later, but I think Cano expressed his views on justification in his book, Relectio de sacramentis genera.

When I put in parens, "(whatever it is in fullness"), I was referring to Cano's opinion, and not referring to the council. I think the Council quite clear: "if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified." 

I'd be shocked if a "Post-Tridentine" theologian expressed thoughts on justification without taking into account that language and Trent's definitive treatment of the subject. That would be inexcusable. 
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #242 on: August 29, 2022, 09:13:21 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on August 29, 2022, 05:27:17 AM
The reason I ask is that I have substantial doubt that even the only theologian (Cano) who seems to have distinguished between justification and salvation in a way that could possibly support your position even considered the Session of Trent on justification in formulating his opinion. I would wager that, in the work where Cano discusses justification, he doesn't even take into account Trent's "opinion" (whatever it is in fullness) on the subject. I'm sure you would agree that would detract from any weight his opinion had.

I can get into this more later, but I think Cano expressed his views on justification in his book, Relectio de sacramentis genera.


The book is on Google in its original Latin. I searched for Trent and there's 3 references, all to Session 7 on the sacraments. No reference to Session VI on justification. Very odd.

Here's a link to the book and the references in it on Trent as far as I can gather:


https://books.google.com/books?id=Q0V0tXbRp-cC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=Trident&f=false

The reason I think this is the book where Cano speculates on justification is it's cited for the speculation here:


https://books.google.com/books?id=ovnNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA297&lpg=PA297&dq=melchior+cano+justification&source=bl&ots=Uc7DmdpWfI&sig=ACfU3U3VMt44v-jhINvSBDMQpuMJzeOpXA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8k8Omrer5AhVXhIkEHUqCA8M4eBDoAXoECBMQAw#v=onepage&q=melchior%20cano%20justification&f=false

The reference is to the complete works, and I'll try to track it down.
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Offline augustineeens

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #243 on: August 30, 2022, 10:18:45 PM »
Quote from: augustineeens on August 29, 2022, 12:29:57 AM
Major: No man is justified without being born again (Trent)
Minor: The desire for baptism does not give the grace of rebirth (St. Alphonsus)
Conclusion: The desire for baptism can not effect justification without the laver of regeneration.

What do you object to in this, Lad?
No reply? Curious...
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #244 on: August 30, 2022, 10:47:32 PM »
Quote from: augustineeens on August 30, 2022, 10:18:45 PM
No reply? Curious...

No reply because that syllogism is a butchered version of an argument made by the Dimond Brothers, and the way you have it structured makes no sense whatsoever.  You attribute to St. Alphonsus in the MINOR not what he said, but in fact a CONCLUSION drawn by the Dimonds.  So whatever it is you're trying to argue here makes no sense from your syllogism.

Without spending more time on the rest of it, right out of the gate, your MAJOR is patently false.  Men are justified all the time after they through Confession ... even though there's no rebirth in Confession.  So please try to think through what argument you're actually trying to make and present it in a correctly-structured syllogism.
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