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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 42114 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #175 on: August 26, 2022, 09:16:43 AM »
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it's merely an opinion, and St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus, and even Father Feeney felt otherwise.  You can't confuse your interpretation of the text with dogma itself ... which is something you have a tendency to do.
I am not interpreting what it says because to do so changes it's meaning - as you keep demonstrating.


Even if you read it that way, it's simply untrue that the meaning doesn't change by adding the words "or the desire thereof".  Fathers of Trent didn't add that for no reason. 
The Fathers of Trent added those words to teach that the desire thereof (BOD) does not justify - if you believe what the words say, then you cannot make them mean anything else. The Fathers of Trent likely foresaw there might be those like yourself who did not accept this, which is likely why they concluded with John 3:5, which squashes the idea of any type of a BOD, and does so in no uncertain terms.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #176 on: August 26, 2022, 09:21:55 AM »


This thing is stupid and needs to stop.

In between the "understand the dogma as it's written" and "interpret it away into meaninglessness" ... there is the in-between problem of how to actually understand the "dogma as it's written".

We have Stubborn over here claiming that it's possible for the Catholic Church to go corrupt, and he's basing that somehow on his reading dogma "as it's written".

It's one step away from saying "read Scripture as it's written".  There is some room for things to be understood properly and to be misunderstood.

Yes, "[t]his thing is stupid and needs to stop." But you have the wrong "thing."

Without blinking, you essentially accuse Stuborn of Prot "private judgment" as you privately interpret St. Leo's letter, etc. and etc. :laugh1::jester:

Yo, great defender, worthy thane and loyal subject to the Magisterium - as opposed to the rest of the heretics like Stubborn and I - tell me whether you agree with this principle:


Quote
However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.

Now, I'm sure you recognize the source of the quote. So to deflect a likely evasion tactic, I am asking you if you disagree with
expressed principle - that question has nothing to do with the source of the quote.

It's a wonder if you haven't caused the death of many member from choking on the vomit called up by your posts.


Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #177 on: August 26, 2022, 09:24:26 AM »
 You can't confuse your interpretation of the text with dogma itself ... which is something you have a tendency to do.
But that's literally what you and Pax are doing. And then you appeal to the opinions of these theologians who were themselves reading into the definition of Trent. They were not bound by V1 yet, but we are, so therefore, the point is moot. Trent defines baptism and affirms it with John 3:5, plain as day; but then you keep circling back to a "deeper meaning" regarding justification vs sanctification. 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #178 on: August 26, 2022, 09:26:28 AM »
Wrong.

No.  This is speaking of justification in the context of the Sacrament of Baptism, where indeed if the person has the requisite dispositions and receives the Sacrament, he would enter a state of grace.  Post-Tridentine theologians used it in the broader sense.

These passages have to be understood in context.  So, for instance, another context here is that it's speaking here of justification for adults, and so much of it doesn't apply to infants.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #179 on: August 26, 2022, 09:28:36 AM »
But that's literally what you and Pax are doing. And then you appeal to the opinions of these theologians who were themselves reading into the definition of Trent. They were not bound by V1 yet, but we are, so therefore, the point is moot. Trent defines baptism and affirms it with John 3:5, plain as day; but then you keep circling back to a "deeper meaning" regarding justification vs sanctification.

I'm doing nothing of the sort.  I've never ruled out this interpretation of Trent as impossible, and certainly would never claim that MY reading of the passage is in fact the dogma.  Stubborn routinely misapplies the notion of "dogma as it is written" to extrapolate from this that his interpretation or reading of the text is = to the dogma itself.  I've never done that.

He's effectively saying that his interpretation of the text = the dogma itself, and that would render St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus heretics for denying that dogma.  Unfortunately, the Dimonds do the exact same thing.

I never said that the readings of Bellarmine, Alphonsus, et al. were dogma, just that they must at least be considered viable interpretations of Trent and possible.  Nor have I said that I necessarily agree with their reading of it.  I'm merely stating that it's a possible interpretation and cannot be summarily dismissed as "contrary to the dogma as it is written", but rather "contrary to the dogma as [Stubborn thinks] it is written".  I've seen him repeatedly butcher and misread one doctrine or dogma after another than then claim that his misinterpretation was the dogma itself.

To have some disagreement about what a particular dogmatic text means is not the same thing as interpreting a dogma in a sense other than what was intended by the Council.  What's being debated here is ... what was intended with these words by the Council?