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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 41952 times)

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2022, 04:08:49 PM »
Can you go wrong following our Lord's words in John 3:5? 

Just a simple question... 
You can't, because we are taught, by Tradition, that we take the literal sense first, then move on to the other three senses of Scripture.

Plus, the Council of Trent and Florence support a literal reading of John 3:5. BoD and BoB advocates honestly have nothing here but the speculative opinions of Theologians. Not dogmatic teaching like you do with Baptism.

Quote
Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”
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Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547, ex cathedra:  “If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema.”

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, On Original Sin, Session V, ex cathedra:  “By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death... so that in them there may be washed away by regeneration, what they have contracted by generation, ‘For unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5].”

Pope St. Zosimus, The Council of Carthage, on Original Sin and Grace: “For when the Lord says: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5], what Catholic will doubt that he will be a partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a coheir of Christ.  For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left.”
It's been very clear.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2022, 05:19:34 PM »
You can't, because we are taught, by Tradition, that we take the literal sense first, then move on to the other three senses of Scripture.

Plus, the Council of Trent and Florence support a literal reading of John 3:5. BoD and BoB advocates honestly have nothing here but the speculative opinions of Theologians. Not dogmatic teaching like you do with Baptism.
It's been very clear.
Very clear indeed.
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CHAPTER IV.  A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, – as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.  And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
__________________________

Also, I like it how the Feeneyites say that the common teachings of the theologians failed so soon after the Council of Trent, and even the Catechism of the Council of Trent failed, despite having St. Charles Borromeo as overseer of the catechism! I suppose St. Ambrose, Innocent III, and St. Thomas Aquinas failed as well, just being mere theologians! What a bunch of incompetents and Fr. Feeney was there to correct us all!:facepalm:


Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2022, 05:29:32 PM »
Very clear indeed.
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CHAPTER IV.  A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, – as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.  And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
__________________________

Also, I like it how the Feeneyites say that the common teachings of the theologians failed so soon after the Council of Trent, and even the Catechism of the Council of Trent failed, despite having St. Charles Borromeo as overseer of the catechism! I suppose St. Ambrose, Innocent III, and St. Thomas Aquinas failed as well, just being mere theologians! What a bunch of incompetents and Fr. Feeney was there to correct us all!:facepalm:
Not a Feeneyite. I'm a Catholic.

Theologians speculating on very specific, and restrictive, matters on BoD is not a wider teaching by the Church. Ss. Alphonsus and Thomas holding an opinion on whether a catechumen can get to heaven without water baptism is leagues different from Trad Bishops and Priests preaching that a Jєω, Muslim, or pagan can get to heaven without water baptism.

Secondly, your reading comprehension is terrible. You have to use water and there has to be a desire for the Sacrament in order for it to be efficacious. Each of there parts in themselves do not connect a Sacrament. You can't force something to be baptized if they have no desire; and conversely, you have no Sacrament if only the desire is present but no water is used.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2022, 05:30:41 PM »
Not a Feeneyite. I'm a Catholic.

Theologians speculating on very specific, and restrictive, matters on BoD is not a wider teaching by the Church. Ss. Alphonsus and Thomas holding an opinion on whether a catechumen can get to heaven without water baptism is leagues different from Trad Bishops and Priests preaching that a Jєω, Muslim, or pagan can get to heaven without water baptism.
No, you're specifically contradicting Trent, ignoring even the Chapter I quoted. And you're specifically ignoring the Summa Theologica!

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2022, 05:31:49 PM »
No, you're specifically contradicting Trent, ignoring even the Chapter I quoted. And you're specifically ignoring the Summa Theologica!
See my edit.