Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 41919 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2022, 01:10:20 PM »
I was taught that is a Protestant notion, that Catholicism is a combination of the Bible, tradition, and Church teaching.

Can you go wrong following our Lord's words in John 3:5?  

Just a simple question...  

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2022, 01:33:36 PM »
I was taught that is a Protestant notion, that Catholicism is a combination of the Bible, tradition, and Church teaching.

In isolation, yes, but he's saying that within the context of the way the Church has always understood this passage, as Our Lord teaching the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.  It's not as if he's deciding, like the Prots, that this was some kind of metaphor for the flow of grace or something.

And what's he's saying is along the lines of what Pius IX wrote in Singulari Quadam:
Quote
let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is ‘one God, one faith, one baptism’ [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

We know that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation.  We don't need to know or ask any more than that.  This attempt to find all manner of exception, etc., serves no purpose other than to undermine this dogma.

Are the faithful required to recite back 3 pages of distinctions and explanations regarding what Our Lord REALLY meant, or does it suffice to believe that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, without needing to add a dozen qualifiers that end up gutting the literal sense of what Our Lord taught?

What purpose does all this speculation about a BoD serve?  If God saves some souls by way of BoD, then glory be to Him.  What practical difference does it make for us?  On the other hand, if people start believing in BoD, it can very easily undermine faith in the necessity of Baptism.  As Father Feeney stated, belief in BoD makes BoD impossible, since people replace their desire for Baptism with a desire for the desire of Baptism.  We have seen its fruits, the loss of faith that there can be no salvation outside the Church.  Belief in BoD has no upside, but a massive potential downside.

In fact, we've gotten to the point with the "well, we need to understand this the way the Church does" crowd that they claim that the Church has interpreted it to mean the opposite of what it actually says and that anybody who holds this teaching of Our Lord as meaning exactly what it says is a heretic.  In other words, people who believe that the Sacrament of Baptism is a sine qua non for salvation are now derided as "Feeneyite" "heretics".

So, while we have to interpret Scripture according to the Magisterium and to Tradition, the problem comes in when people "interpret" the Magisterium into explaining away dogmas.  That is why we need a living Magisterium and not merely a static Tradition, since the same problem arises with "Scripture and Tradition alone" as it does for "Scripture alone".


Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2022, 01:49:17 PM »
Quote
Pax Vobis

I believe the OT (old Testament) Just were baptized in Limbo, when Christ visited there after his death and before the Resurrection.  Then they waited 40 days until He ascended into heaven and joyfully followed Him.

I think the miracles of those who were actually raised from the dead was to reinforce the necessity of water.  Like the story of St Patrick who resurrected one of the dead kings...who died under the new law, so baptism was necessary for his salvation, which is why he was resurrected.  It proves the point of baptism's importance.

The OT Just, on the other hand, did not need baptism under the old law, so they could receive it outside of earthly/temporal rules (aka in Limbo).

Durango77

ROFL, any historical reference for that?  Seems like you just came up with whatever you could to explain your erroneous position.  What about the Good Thief?  "Amen, I say to you, this day you will be with me in Paradise."  He didn't have to wait 40 days.  How did he get baptized?  I really just can't fathom how people can blatantly contradict the teachings of Trent.
----------------------------------------------

Additionally, Hell was divided between the Limbo of the Fathers and Gehenna. Christ only went to the Limbo of the Fathers; He did not free the iniquitous dead. The Limbo of Fathers, being a place for the virtuous, could be called Paradise.

In any case, whatever Our Lord meant, we know He could not have meant Heaven, as it's dogma that He descended into Hell.
------------------------------------------------------------

Sefa

Paradise means a walled garden, not necessarily heaven. Christ did not go to heaven on good friday, so paradise must refer to being in christ's presence and the good thief descended with christ into hell, which christ turned into a paradise by his presence. It stands to reason that the good thief would also be ressurrected and baptised.

Jesus Christ is a Divine Being with 2 Natures - a Divine Nature and a Human Nature. When Christ died on the cross, His Human Nature descended to the Bosom of Abraham (limbo, hell) for 3 days while His Divine Nature always remained in Heaven. When the good thief died on his cross, he joined Christ's Divine Nature in Heaven when Christ died on His cross a little later that same day. That's why Christ told the good thief he will with Him today in paradise. 

This has always been my understanding. Am I way off here?

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2022, 03:15:18 PM »

Quote
When the good thief died on his cross, he joined Christ's Divine Nature in Heaven when Christ died on His cross a little later that same day.
No, I don't see how this is possible.  The gates of heaven were closed to every person from the time of Adam's sin til Christ's ascension.  No person entered heaven until Ascension Thursday, when Christ entered first, as the new-Adam, reversing the sin in the Garden of Eden.


If the Old Testament martyrs (i.e. Maccabees) didn't get into heaven but went to Limbo to wait, then how does the "good thief" get to heaven, when he wasn't even a martyr?  Makes no sense.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2022, 04:02:18 PM »
No, I don't see how this is possible.  The gates of heaven were closed to every person from the time of Adam's sin til Christ's ascension.  No person entered heaven until Ascension Thursday, when Christ entered first, as the new-Adam, reversing the sin in the Garden of Eden.


If the Old Testament martyrs (i.e. Maccabees) didn't get into heaven but went to Limbo to wait, then how does the "good thief" get to heaven, when he wasn't even a martyr?  Makes no sense.
People tend to get hung up on the "this day" clause of what He tells the good thief. MHFM actually had a good explanation for that, as Christ was speaking in the sense, "I tell you, this day, you will be with me in Heaven" (paraphrasing). Not in the sense that literally that day he would be in heaven, as we all know Christ descended into hell, He did not ascend into Heaven until later. But rather, that day, He was telling the thief he would be with him in Heaven; as in, "Right now I'm telling you you'll be with me in heaven".

Quote
In fact, when Our Lord said to the Good Thief, “This day you will be with Me in paradise,” Jesus was not referring to heaven, but actually to hell. As Catholics know, no one entered heaven until after Our Lord did, after His Resurrection. On the day of the Crucifixion, Christ descended into hell, as the Apostles’ Creed says. He did not descend to the hell of the damned, but to the place in hell called the Limbo of the Fathers, the waiting place of the Just of the Old Testament, who could not enter heaven until after the Savior came.
https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/good-thief-holy-innocents/