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Author Topic: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)  (Read 41869 times)

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Online Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #290 on: October 11, 2022, 09:17:27 AM »
I beleive they were mistaken by equating Trent's teaching about CoD (Confession of Desire) to the use of votum here in relation to the Sacrament of Baptism.

IMO, that passage is ambiguous and could be read either way, but the differences between the language used here vs. what was used for Confession is striking and tells me that they're not teaching the same thing there.
It really is only confusing AFTER reading it the way a BODers explain it. But if one reads it without ever having read it at all prior, you will find that it does not grant salvation or justification at all. What it actually says is that without either, the idea that justification is obtained, is condemned with anathema.

Somehow *that* was turned into, with either salvation is obtained.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #291 on: October 11, 2022, 09:52:50 AM »
 Session 7 Canon 4:

"CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema."


Ok, thanks for clearing that up. 

The canon doesn't prove what you want it to prove. I don't know many BODers - can't think of one, actually - who hold that the sacraments are "superfluous," which is the gloss on what "necessary" means in the text. That this is so is clear from the Canon V on baptism itself from the same session:

Quote
If anyone shall say that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema.

Again, I don't know of any BODers who say that baptism is "optional." The "optional, that is" is similar to the gloss of "but superfluous," and explains the use of "necessity" in context. 

Additionally, you have the same appearance of "or" in Session 7, Canon 4, so that doesn't support you, as the same argument of the universal reading of Catholic saints and theologians of the "or" being disjunctive in Session VI, Chapter IV would apply equally well here. 

DR




 


Online Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #292 on: October 11, 2022, 10:20:07 AM »
Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

The canon doesn't prove what you want it to prove. I don't know many BODers - can't think of one, actually - who hold that the sacraments are "superfluous," which is the gloss on what "necessary" means in the text. That this is so is clear from the Canon V on baptism itself from the same session:

Again, I don't know of any BODers who say that baptism is "optional." The "optional, that is" is similar to the gloss of "but superfluous," and explains the use of "necessity" in context.
But Trent condemns with anathema whoever says the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, but superfluous - no matter how you say it.

This means that if you say that a BOD is salvific, you are saying exactly that the sacrament is superfluous because you are saying that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, which is the whole idea behind a BOD.

Quote
Additionally, you have the same appearance of "or" in Session 7, Canon 4, so that doesn't support you, as the same argument of the universal reading of Catholic saints and theologians of the "or" being disjunctive in Session VI, Chapter IV would apply equally well here.
No, you are wrong here DR.

There is no sense to focus on the word "or" when you should be focused on the 2 words "without." Do that and it becomes quite clear that Trent says without the sacrament or without the desire = no justification. Trent clearly condemns both as obtaining justification through faith alone.

As I posted earlier....This Canon says "No sacrament or no desire = condemned, as the obtaining of justification through faith alone.

EXACTLY what do you think that Trent is condemning with anathema in this canon? Please explain.

Online Stubborn

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Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #293 on: October 11, 2022, 04:15:53 PM »
Here's a question asked a few years ago by ihsv, a poster I liked a lot. I cannot remember if it was ever answered but I don't think so.

"Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

Yes or no."
There should be a crickets emoji.

Re: John 3:5 defined as Dogma at Trent, Theologian admits (video)
« Reply #294 on: October 11, 2022, 04:56:32 PM »
There should be a crickets emoji.
I agree.