Author Topic: If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist? (Read 5574 times)

Jehanne · « **on:** September 23, 2013, 05:42:56 PM »

Seems strange for a traditional Catholic group to give the Blessed Sacrament, the Body, Blood, and Soul of our Lord Jesus Christ to people whom you consider to be heretics.

mobius · « **Reply #1 on:** September 24, 2013, 12:55:41 PM »

Very good point!

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #2 on:** September 24, 2013, 01:03:52 PM »

Technically I can't consider them heretics, but this is only because they were not condemned as such when a real pope was around to do so.

I am wrong to refer to them that way, for now, until a real pope does so in the future. But I am right to condemn them of a grave error that harms the Church. I am also correct to say that it could be a heresy.

And I believe I am on safe ground on condemning Father Feeney's particular heresy that claims that some who die in a state of sanctifying grace do not go to Heaven.

It is the opposite of infallible Catholic teaching.

Jehanne · « **Reply #3 on:** September 24, 2013, 01:38:56 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

And I believe I am on safe ground on condemning Father Feeney's particular heresy that claims that some who die in a state of sanctifying grace do not go to Heaven.

This is a simple caricature of Father Feeney's position. In his Bread of Life, he presents his readers with a paradox:

Quote

Here is a brief catechism line-up, in case you would like to brush up on what I have been saying:

Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water?
A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water.

Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water?
A. No. They are not saved.

Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification but have not received Baptism of Water?
A. I do not know.

Q. Do they go to Hell?
A. No.

Q. Do they go to Heaven?
A. No.

Q. Are there any such souls?
A. I do not know! Neither do you!

Q. What are we to say to those who believe there are such souls?
A. We must say to them that they are making reason prevail over Faith, and the laws of probability over the Providence of God.

Of course, all individuals will end-up in either Heaven or Hell, so Father Feeney is presenting his readers with a "null set," that is, a set of individuals which do not contain any actual members. In other words, he is saying that those individuals who are truly justified will, eventually, be sacramentally baptized without any exceptions whatsoever.

bowler · « **Reply #4 on:** September 24, 2013, 01:43:20 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Technically I can't consider them heretics, but this is only because they were not condemned as such when a real pope was around to do so.

I am wrong to refer to them that way, for now, until a real pope does so in the future. But I am right to condemn them of a grave error that harms the Church. I am also correct to say that it could be a heresy.

Meanwhile you reject the Holy Week Mass changes of Pius XII, for which you would have been excommunicated for schism. AND you believe that anyone who is unbaptized can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor be baptized, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation, which is opposed to ALL the Fathers, Saints, Doctors, and the Athanasian Creed.

I say you are insane or you've lost the faith.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #5 on:** September 24, 2013, 01:47:38 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Technically I can't consider them heretics, but this is only because they were not condemned as such when a real pope was around to do so.

I am wrong to refer to them that way, for now, until a real pope does so in the future. But I am right to condemn them of a grave error that harms the Church. I am also correct to say that it could be a heresy.

Meanwhile you reject the Holy Week Mass changes of Pius XII, for which you would have been excommunicated for schism. AND you believe that anyone who is unbaptized can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor be baptized, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation, which is opposed to ALL the Fathers, Saints, Doctors, and the Athanasian Creed.

I say you are insane or you've lost the faith.

If you want to start a thread on the liturgy please feel free to do so. This is a thread on the errors of Feeney.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #6 on:** September 24, 2013, 01:51:04 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Seems strange for a traditional Catholic group to give the Blessed Sacrament, the Body, Blood, and Soul of our Lord Jesus Christ to people whom you consider to be heretics.

Did you read the four articles by them against Feeneyism. I think they are against it though they, in my opinion, rightfully, so long as they don't go around telling everyone that they are heretics and damned as have been known to do, administer the sacraments to them as they cannot judge their subjective culpability. Many of the Feeneyite persuasion are acting in good faith. They try to live a good Catholic life and really believe the Catholic Church understands her teaching on salvation as they do.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #7 on:** September 24, 2013, 01:54:12 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Lover of Truth
And I believe I am on safe ground on condemning Father Feeney's particular heresy that claims that some who die in a state of sanctifying grace do not go to Heaven.

This is a simple caricature of Father Feeney's position. In his Bread of Life, he presents his readers with a paradox:

Quote
Here is a brief catechism line-up, in case you would like to brush up on what I have been saying:

Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water?
A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water.

Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water?
A. No. They are not saved.

Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification but have not received Baptism of Water?
A. I do not know.

Q. Do they go to Hell?
A. No.

Q. Do they go to Heaven?
A. No.

Q. Are there any such souls?
A. I do not know! Neither do you!

Q. What are we to say to those who believe there are such souls?
A. We must say to them that they are making reason prevail over Faith, and the laws of probability over the Providence of God.

Of course, all individuals will end-up in either Heaven or Hell, so Father Feeney is presenting his readers with a "null set," that is, a set of individuals which do not contain any actual members. In other words, he is saying that those individuals who are truly justified will, eventually, be sacramentally baptized without any exceptions whatsoever.

Quote

Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water?
A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water.

Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water?
A. No. They are not saved

He teaches the above and those who have studied his teaching admit this. He backs himself into a strange corner in which he cannot get out so he came up with the strange nonsense you share. I am sorry that he taught it and more sorry still that so many have fallen for it.

Why doesn't he come out and say what you wish he was saying without saying it?

Jehanne · « **Reply #8 on:** September 24, 2013, 01:58:11 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Jehanne
Seems strange for a traditional Catholic group to give the Blessed Sacrament, the Body, Blood, and Soul of our Lord Jesus Christ to people whom you consider to be heretics.

Did you read the four articles by them against Feeneyism. I think they are against it though they, in my opinion, rightfully, so long as they don't go around telling everyone that they are heretics and damned as have been known to do, administer the sacraments to them as they cannot judge their subjective culpability. Many of the Feeneyite persuasion are acting in good faith. They try to live a good Catholic life and really believe the Catholic Church understands her teaching on salvation as they do.

And, of course, this is a problem when one believes that the Catholic Church no longer has a legitimate hierarchy, which the SSPX does not profess. On the other hand, if one does profess and believe that the Catholic hierarchy are the true Successors to the Apostles, and with the Pope, the Successor to Saint Peter, then one would have to conclude that they are allowing the Sacraments to be administered to (and by) public heretics, which is occurring on a daily basis with "Feeneyites." As with the Eastern Orthodox, some of whom say that artificial contraception is moral and illicit while others state that it is a mortal sin, one does not have a final authority to appeal to.

Jehanne · « **Reply #9 on:** September 24, 2013, 02:28:32 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

He teaches the above and those who have studied his teaching admit this. He backs himself into a strange corner in which he cannot get out so he came up with the strange nonsense you share. I am sorry that he taught it and more sorry still that so many have fallen for it.

Why doesn't he come out and say what you wish he was saying without saying it?

I think that he was trying to get his readers to think about the topic! After all, do you know that there are individuals in Paradise who lack the character of Baptism? Are such cases visible to you??

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #10 on:** September 24, 2013, 02:30:26 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Jehanne
Seems strange for a traditional Catholic group to give the Blessed Sacrament, the Body, Blood, and Soul of our Lord Jesus Christ to people whom you consider to be heretics.

Did you read the four articles by them against Feeneyism. I think they are against it though they, in my opinion, rightfully, so long as they don't go around telling everyone that they are heretics and damned as have been known to do, administer the sacraments to them as they cannot judge their subjective culpability. Many of the Feeneyite persuasion are acting in good faith. They try to live a good Catholic life and really believe the Catholic Church understands her teaching on salvation as they do.

And, of course, this is a problem when one believes that the Catholic Church no longer has a legitimate hierarchy, which the SSPX does not profess. On the other hand, if one does profess and believe that the Catholic hierarchy are the true Successors to the Apostles, and with the Pope, the Successor to Saint Peter, then one would have to conclude that they are allowing the Sacraments to be administered to (and by) public heretics, which is occurring on a daily basis with "Feeneyites." As with the Eastern Orthodox, some of whom say that artificial contraception is moral and illicit while others state that it is a mortal sin, one does not have a final authority to appeal to.

So on one hand you say that SSPX is not against Feeneyism and on the other you say even if they are it does not matter.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #11 on:** September 24, 2013, 02:34:14 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Lover of Truth
He teaches the above and those who have studied his teaching admit this. He backs himself into a strange corner in which he cannot get out so he came up with the strange nonsense you share. I am sorry that he taught it and more sorry still that so many have fallen for it.

Why doesn't he come out and say what you wish he was saying without saying it?

I think that he was trying to get his readers to think about the topic! After all, do you know that there are individuals in Paradise who lack the character of Baptism? Are such cases visible to you??

I can't try to guess what he wants us to think. I can only go by what he says. If you want to convince me that the line of saints quoted are wrong you need to use something else.

Jehanne · « **Reply #12 on:** September 24, 2013, 02:58:57 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

So on one hand you say that SSPX is not against Feeneyism and on the other you say even if they are it does not matter.

Father Feeney's Bread of Life has not been condemned, and individuals who support that POV are free to receive and give the Sacraments within the Catholic Church, or at least the Novus Ordo Church. Of course, with no true Vicar of Christ on the Throne (or so say the sedes), all that you can appeal to is private judgment. Even the last true Pope (in your view), Pope Pius XII did not condemn "Feeneyism" and neither did the Holy Office Letter even condemn it. The only condemnation in that docuмent is the following:

Quote

Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest, and an ordinary member of the Church.

Again, what "grave sanctions" did Father Feeney incur? As we all know, he was excommunicated for disobedience and not for heresy. And, yet, he was reconciled by Pope (or, anti-Pope) Paul VI without ever retracting his former "errors". So, where are things today? You cannot say for certain, because, in your view, the Chair is empty.

Jehanne · « **Reply #13 on:** September 24, 2013, 03:03:37 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
He teaches the above and those who have studied his teaching admit this. He backs himself into a strange corner in which he cannot get out so he came up with the strange nonsense you share. I am sorry that he taught it and more sorry still that so many have fallen for it.

Why doesn't he come out and say what you wish he was saying without saying it?

I think that he was trying to get his readers to think about the topic! After all, do you know that there are individuals in Paradise who lack the character of Baptism? Are such cases visible to you??

I can't try to guess what he wants us to think. I can only go by what he says. If you want to convince me that the line of saints quoted are wrong you need to use something else.

Not one of them ever taught that there are folks in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism. For them, such was a non-issue, because if any individuals are, in fact, redeemed apart from sacramental Baptism, such cases are known only to the Triune God, and not to us. This is why Pope Pius IX declared in Singulari Quadam:

Quote

For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

"Baptism of Desire" does not matter; it's irrelevant to the conversion of every human being, without exception, to the One True Faith & Church. What's strange is your prolonged obsession over it!

Matto · « **Reply #14 on:** September 24, 2013, 03:10:26 PM »

I think the SSPX treats those who deny BOD similarly to sedevacantists. It opposes both, but allows both groups of people to receive the sacraments (at least this is true in my chapel).