Author Topic: BoD Challenge -- Still Unmet (Read 3901 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #45 on:** September 26, 2013, 06:36:34 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Again, if God is not bound by His sacraments and that is also Church teaching I'm not sure how you or anyone can say He would NEVER do that. I think that is my main issue with those of you who, quite frankly, are teaching that God IS bound by His Sacraments. With God all things are possible. Having said that, I do not think some of what you have been saying in the threads I have read is wrong. To be fair to you, I do think that at times many of us take BOD too far and see it more as a rule than an exception. On the other hand you and others will not even entertain God's ability to allow exceptions from His own rules.

God is not bound by His sacraments, and we say that when it comes to the sacrament of baptism that "He would never do that" because that is what we have been taught through ex cathedra teaching. When the Council, guided and protected by the Holy Ghost proclaims:
CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
And then says:
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

We are not even allowed to hope that God will change His mind here and allow the very thing He just said we cannot do, i.e. wrest to some sort of metaphor the words of Our Lord. This means the words of Our Lord must be taken literally.

BOD is in fact and in practice, "some sort of metaphor" and BOD wrests the clear words of Our Lord which the Council just proclaimed we are not allowed to do under pain of anathema.

We are permitted to hope that the dead unbaptized person was possibly somehow saved via a miracle we are unaware of, we can pray for them after they have died - but we cannot presume that God will reward that soul entrance into heaven without the sacrament of baptism after Trent infallibly taught that the sacrament of baptism is not an option. I mean, it is written right there - and we are bound to accept it in all it's momentous absoluteness, we cannot say for sure exactly why it is that BODers keep making exceptions when they clearly are not permitted to do such a thing, but they do.

Quote from: 2Vermont

Anyway, I don't see this going anywhere productive, so I should probably do what Matto does and stay out of these "discussions".

Yes, the same argument has gone on for a long time and as long as people keep making exceptions to ex cathedra teachings, the argument will continue.

bowler · « **Reply #46 on:** September 26, 2013, 06:59:38 AM »

We have allowed people who are ill equipped to answer Ladislaus challenge, to shift the subject to the same puerile comments they repeat ad nauseum and we have replied to over and over. I think it is disrespectful to shift a discussion like that. For that reason I immediately left this thread and started one on the catechisms entitled "SJB on BOD of the Catechumen" for that subject. All should do the same. (Myrna start a thread about Dismas, Vermont start a thread about God is not bound, and SJB & Stubborn, I already started one on catechisms)

Here is the subject of this thread:

Quote from: Ladislaus

I have proposed this challenge multiple times to those who claim that the rejection of BoD for catechumens is heresy.

Demonstrate --

1) how BoD was uninimously taught by the Church Fathers (which would indicate that it was revealed) or
2) how BoD derives implicitly and necessarily from other revealed Catholic doctrines

Let us prescind for now from the claim that Trent taught BoD.

NO ONE has been able to demonstrate this. Consequently, BoD for catechumens remains nothing but a matter of speculative theology and simply cannot be dogma.

Just because more and more modern theologians happen to accept this, it means nothing, since the Church cannot have grown to a gradual awareness of a dogma over time, for nothing can be added to the Deposit of Revelation since the death of the Last Apostle.

With regard to 1), only St. Augustine floated the idea of BoD (I'm not speaking yet about BoB). St. Augustine himself later forcefully rejected the same idea. St. Gregory nαzιanzen explicitly rejected the notion. Show me this alleged "unanimous teaching" of the Fathers on the notion of BoD. It simply doesn't exist. Modern BoD proponents dishonestly cite a couple Father who believed in BoB as proofs for BoD, but several of these same Fathers reject BoD in the same sentence by saying that BoB is the ONLY "exception" to the necessity of water Baptism.

No one has yet to demonstrate point #2.

BoD is nothing but speculative theology based on the feeling that anything else just wouldn't be "fair". Father Peter Scott opens his promotion of BoD by stating that salvation is a FREE gift from God but then argues that God would be a "monster" if He were to refuse BoD. ??? That pseudo-theology argument from what seems just to us needs to be rejected out of hand. St. Augustine called it a "vortex of confusion" when rejecting BoD towards the later part of his life.

I demand REAL theology ... Thomistic syllogism from other dogmas to prove the existence of BoD as a dogma.

SJB · « **Reply #47 on:** September 26, 2013, 08:05:30 AM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: 2Vermont

I don't think anyone is diminishing the Sacraments. I know I'm not. I tend to think that there are some who wish to depict others as diminishing the Sacrament.

Well the Church infallibly taught that the sacraments are necessary for salvation (I forget which council and I don't have the docuмentation in front of me) and you say that no, the sacraments are not necessary for salvation. Some would say that believing as you do diminishes the sacraments.

It should be obvious that ALL of the sacraments are not necessary. This fact does not contradict the anathema given to those who deny the sacraments are necessary for salvation.

The common principle that "God's Grace is not bound by the Sacraments" is illustrated well in the Church's teaching on confession.

bowler · « **Reply #48 on:** September 26, 2013, 10:06:23 AM »

SJB,

I think it is disrespectful to shift a discussion like that. Start your own thread and we'll answer you there.

Memento · « **Reply #49 on:** September 26, 2013, 11:55:56 AM »

So as not to derail this thread, I will ask if you will consider an Apostolic teaching on a martyr dying before being baptized?

2Vermont · « **Reply #50 on:** September 26, 2013, 02:59:00 PM »

Quote from: bowler

I think it is disrespectful to shift a discussion like that. For that reason I immediately left this thread and started one on the catechisms entitled "SJB on BOD of the Catechumen" for that subject. All should do the same. (Myrna start a thread about Dismas, Vermont start a thread about God is not bound, and SJB & Stubborn, I already started one on catechisms)

Good to know that this site also has self-appointed moderators.

SJB · « **Reply #51 on:** September 26, 2013, 03:16:17 PM »

Quote from: bowler

SJB,

I think it is disrespectful to shift a discussion like that. Start your own thread and we'll answer you there.

Quote from: Ladislaus

I demand REAL theology ... Thomistic syllogism from other dogmas to prove the existence of BoD as a dogma.

Yes, St. Alphonsus, a Doctor of the Universal Church, a REAL theologian, isn't good enough?