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Author Topic: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS  (Read 2748 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2022, 09:56:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    but Trent infallibly defined BoD as explicit
    Excellent, excellent point.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #16 on: June 14, 2022, 10:01:53 PM »
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    AF (America First movement) as a Novus Ordo apologist group
    I think most of the AF movement is by protestant, pro-Israel, new-agers.  Look at people like Gen Flynn, Trump, and much of the alt media...they are all into new age crystals, weird pagan symbology, "everyone love each other", "peace on earth", NWO ecuмenism.  They drip with sappy, sentimentalist "spirituality".


    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #17 on: June 14, 2022, 10:04:31 PM »
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  • I think most of the AF movement is by protestant, pro-Israel, new-agers.  Look at people like Gen Flynn, Trump, and much of the alt media...they are all into new age crystals, weird pagan symbology, "everyone love each other", "peace on earth", NWO ecuмenism.  They drip with sappy, sentimentalist "spirituality".
    That is not the AF movement. The AF movement refers to Nicholas Fuentes, Scott Greer and others. One of the main tenets of this movement is to be anti-Israel.
    "Know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God." (James 4:4)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #18 on: June 14, 2022, 10:06:07 PM »
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  • Ok, my bad.  I'll look them up.

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #19 on: June 14, 2022, 11:08:37 PM »
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  • That is not the AF movement. The AF movement refers to Nicholas Fuentes, Scott Greer and others. One of the main tenets of this movement is to be anti-Israel.
    Yes, I guess if you're not a millenial or zoomer best way to describe AF is "Novus Ordo Pat Buchanan that is solid on cօռspιʀαcιҽs and Israel". I do like Buchanan FWIW and think he was one of the few to see the circuмstances RE: globalization. I think almost all problems with AF could be sorted out by just being Traditional Catholic, well worth praying for these guys because the True Faith would give them what they, like anyone else needs. I think a lot of the ontics are just downstream of them being a political rather than spiritual movement, and in that sense I cannot blame them because they are in the NO. Most young men are completely deceived regarding religion.
    "We dare not even start to hope until the Faith, the true Faith, and its revealed content, are secured in our minds. Only in terms of Faith do we dare to hope."


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #20 on: June 14, 2022, 11:16:49 PM »
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  • Most young men are completely deceived regarding religion.
    Ain't that the truth. I recently had someone message me on Goodreads (of all places) inquiring about Christianity due to their own despair, thanks to reading Nietzsche. He aligns, politically, with me on a lot of issues. Hopefully I got him on the right track with my book recommendations, because otherwise he was looking toward the Eastern "Orthodox" probably because they "look" traditional and masculine, rather than being the true Faith. He's definitely been in my intentions.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #21 on: June 14, 2022, 11:20:21 PM »
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  • Ain't that the truth. I recently had someone message me on Goodreads (of all places) inquiring about Christianity due to their own despair, thanks to reading Nietzsche. He aligns, politically, with me on a lot of issues. Hopefully I got him on the right track with my book recommendations, because otherwise he was looking toward the Eastern "Orthodox" probably because they "look" traditional and masculine, rather than being the true Faith. He's definitely been in my intentions.
    Said an Ave:pray:
    "We dare not even start to hope until the Faith, the true Faith, and its revealed content, are secured in our minds. Only in terms of Faith do we dare to hope."

    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #22 on: June 15, 2022, 12:12:54 AM »
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  • Although I didn't agree with Pinesaps position in the debate he did bring up some good points about how Dimonds are not consistent with their methods.  For instance Dimonds would call the post V2 Antipopes heretics for doing such and such a thing but not apply those same methods to their predecessors.  You could tell Peter put his foot in his mouth about this around the 42-43 minute mark because he realized he made a boo boo and Pinesap smelled blood and went for it but then the tape "mysteriously" cut out shortly after.  But Pinesap ultimately had to stick to the topic and of course since he's incorrect on the topic he lost in the end.  It's this very inconsistency of Dimonds that has had former Dimondites or Sedes of certain stripes call some or all of the Papal Claimants from Pius IX and on Antipopes.

    Other than that they were arguing in circles on some points and I don't even think the implicit BODers even understand their position lol.  It sounds like what they're TRYING to say is that if God sees something about someone etc. that He will make them Catholic BEFORE they die not AFTER or DURING their death (although Pinesap stupidly said this.)  Basically a death bed conversion right before death but they can't seem to make that point properly and keep talking around that point without hitting the target.   


    Offline bodeens

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #23 on: June 15, 2022, 06:42:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: EWPJ 6/14/2022, 10:12:54 PM
    Although I didn't agree with Pinesaps position in the debate he did bring up some good points about how Dimonds are not consistent with their methods.  For instance Dimonds would call the post V2 Antipopes heretics for doing such and such a thing but not apply those same methods to their predecessors.  You could tell Peter put his foot in his mouth about this around the 42-43 minute mark because he realized he made a boo boo and Pinesap smelled blood and went for it but then the tape "mysteriously" cut out shortly after.  But Pinesap ultimately had to stick to the topic and of course since he's incorrect on the topic he lost in the end.  It's this very inconsistency of Dimonds that has had former Dimondites or Sedes of certain stripes call some or all of the Papal Claimants from Pius IX and on Antipopes.

    Other than that they were arguing in circles on some points and I don't even think the implicit BODers even understand their position lol.  It sounds like what they're TRYING to say is that if God sees something about someone etc. that He will make them Catholic BEFORE they die not AFTER or DURING their death (although Pinesap stupidly said this.)  Basically a death bed conversion right before death but they can't seem to make that point properly and keep talking around that point without hitting the target. 
    I think that's the biggest problem with what pinesap's saying and Br. Peter didn't capitalize enough. I think pinesap internally held
    1) you MUST be Catholic before you die and had to change tactics because
    2) he simultaneously held this is BoD, and not a conversion

    Br. Peter's argument could have been:
    1) At what point in time, according to your position, is a conversion a "BoD"? 
    2) pinesap word salad
    3) Ask him to establish goalposts
    4) he can't objectively delineate between these two things because he trapped himself. They can't say the conversion happens on the death bed because that is the Dimondite position and it undermines ALL forms of BoD.

    I think Br. Peter could have also asked him to define BoD and contrast this with Aquinas' definition and worked through to this point as well. It almost seems as though he underestimated pinesap. Definitely the weakest Dimondite debate performance.


    "We dare not even start to hope until the Faith, the true Faith, and its revealed content, are secured in our minds. Only in terms of Faith do we dare to hope."

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #24 on: June 15, 2022, 09:08:32 AM »
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  • Although I didn't agree with Pinesaps position in the debate he did bring up some good points about how Dimonds are not consistent with their methods.  For instance Dimonds would call the post V2 Antipopes heretics for doing such and such a thing but not apply those same methods to their predecessors.  You could tell Peter put his foot in his mouth about this around the 42-43 minute mark because he realized he made a boo boo and Pinesap smelled blood and went for it but then the tape "mysteriously" cut out shortly after.  But Pinesap ultimately had to stick to the topic and of course since he's incorrect on the topic he lost in the end.  It's this very inconsistency of Dimonds that has had former Dimondites or Sedes of certain stripes call some or all of the Papal Claimants from Pius IX and on Antipopes.
    I don't see the inconsistency in this case. All of the theologians pinesap kept referencing, such as Fenton, promote the exact issue that Br. Peter was trying to show him was erroneous, namely, that non-Catholics can be saved.
    https://vaticancatholic.com/msgr-fenton-book-the-catholic-church-and-salvation/

    For example, I have seen one such inconsistency on their part when it comes to NFP, where they note that Pope Pius XII taught it was permissible and refer to him as in error for the teaching. Yet, if Pius XII, as a legitimate Pope, is protected on matters of faith and morals, then him saying NFP is permissible (in certain situations, mind you) couldn't possibly be heretical nor would it contradict Pius XI's condemnation of "frustrating" the marital act, of which, I don't believe NFP can be said to be a "frustration", maybe an abuse of the natural infertile period of a woman's cycle, but not a frustration. But they object to that and say it was fallible because it was a public speech. Even though it, by their estimation, directly contradicts Pius XI's statements on the matter of birth control; therefore, to be consistent, Pius XII should be considered a non-Pope and heretic because of this act of manifest heresy. 
    https://vaticancatholic.com/natural-family-planning-nfp/#3

    As for the cut in the debate, I don't believe that was malicious, but a technical difficulty, as both admitted it shortly after the fact.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #25 on: June 15, 2022, 10:32:59 AM »
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  • I don't see the inconsistency in this case. All of the theologians pinesap kept referencing, such as Fenton, promote the exact issue that Br. Peter was trying to show him was erroneous, namely, that non-Catholics can be saved.
    https://vaticancatholic.com/msgr-fenton-book-the-catholic-church-and-salvation/

    For example, I have seen one such inconsistency on their part when it comes to NFP, where they note that Pope Pius XII taught it was permissible and refer to him as in error for the teaching. Yet, if Pius XII, as a legitimate Pope, is protected on matters of faith and morals, then him saying NFP is permissible (in certain situations, mind you) couldn't possibly be heretical nor would it contradict Pius XI's condemnation of "frustrating" the marital act, of which, I don't believe NFP can be said to be a "frustration", maybe an abuse of the natural infertile period of a woman's cycle, but not a frustration. But they object to that and say it was fallible because it was a public speech. Even though it, by their estimation, directly contradicts Pius XI's statements on the matter of birth control; therefore, to be consistent, Pius XII should be considered a non-Pope and heretic because of this act of manifest heresy.
    https://vaticancatholic.com/natural-family-planning-nfp/#3

    As for the cut in the debate, I don't believe that was malicious, but a technical difficulty, as both admitted it shortly after the fact.
    Crossed out what I got wrong above, but, the inconsistency still stands.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]


    Offline bodeens

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    Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
    « Reply #26 on: June 19, 2022, 12:12:34 PM »
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  • Interesting video speckzo and pinesap put out in which he gives a hermeneutic for the death penalty and says it may not be admissable but still can be implemented but that heretics should be killed. Interestingly this is yet another ecclesiological issue because of UR. 

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=tXDR4zlUbaM
    "We dare not even start to hope until the Faith, the true Faith, and its revealed content, are secured in our minds. Only in terms of Faith do we dare to hope."