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Author Topic: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS  (Read 8526 times)

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Offline bodeens

1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
« on: June 10, 2022, 02:16:44 AM »
This most interesting thing about this debate is that it is a 1P5/Meaning of Catholic person (he is speckzo and Jeremiah Bannister's friend). It is a low cost way for MoC to debate MHFM without directly losing credibility, since they can't afford to place their brand on the line. All of the recent anti sede talk from Bannister is leading up to this for sure. I don't know what MoC was thinking with this lol.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=zzT0He4I0tg

Something tells me this isn't the last from MoC vs MHFM. I figure the Dimonds accepted this
Because they realized it was a 1P5/MoC proxy debate and I assume Bannister is on their radar (he was in contact with them at one point IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong). Another note is look at how Pinesap focuses on optics in this debate: Rather than ecclesiology, I think sedevacantism's weakest point is optics and 1P5 sees an opportunity here.
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Offline bodeens

Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2022, 02:39:12 AM »
There is a great section on Suprema Haec in this, btw.
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2022, 05:33:58 AM »
I listened to the first minute or two, not sure I could take much more of the same old thing that starts out with invincible ignorance.

That term should be completely banished and replaced 100% of the time in thought and word with PPIX's words: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion." 

It amazes me that Pope Pius IX's Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, which is about the promotion of false doctrines, is itself most often used for promoting the false doctrine of salvation for the invincibly ignorant.


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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2022, 07:17:15 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on June 10, 2022, 05:33:58 AM
I listened to the first minute or two, not sure I could take much more of the same old thing that starts out with invincible ignorance.

I agree.  II (invincible ignorance) should be stricken from the Catholic vocabulary.  That argument from II implies clear-cut Pelagianism.  Ignorance can never be salvific, but merely exculpatory.  Period.  If one is inculpably ignorant, then the ignorance is no sin, but that says absolutely nothing about what is required for salvation, supernatural faith, charity, etc.  You could be as invincibly ignorant as anyone who's ever lived, but if you have no supernatural faith, you cannot be saved.  There's this hidden (or not-so-hidden) Pelagian idea that unless you actively and explicitly do something evil, you are saved by default.  That is not true.  On account of Original Sin, we are lost by default.
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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: 1P5 vs Dimonds: Opening Salvo on EENS
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2022, 07:59:54 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on June 10, 2022, 05:33:58 AM
I listened to the first minute or two, not sure I could take much more of the same old thing that starts out with invincible ignorance.

That term should be completely banished and replaced 100% of the time in thought and word with PPIX's words: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion."

It amazes me that Pope Pius IX's Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, which is about the promotion of false doctrines, is itself most often used for promoting the false doctrine of salvation for the invincibly ignorant.
Yeah I got about 8 minutes in and knew this was ground that MHFM have already thoroughly covered on the topic.
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