Author Topic: How can you defend the salvation dogma with... (Read 8750 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #95 on:** October 23, 2013, 05:48:52 AM »

Quote

"The dogmatic section of the Mystici Corporis is divided into two parts. In the first part the Holy Father describes the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. In the second he tells about the union of the faithful with our Lord.

Fenton

Does anyone disagree with the above statement?

Stubborn · « **Reply #96 on:** October 23, 2013, 05:54:56 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

God's permissive will allows for a person to die before he becomes an actual member. Even though that is opposed to His actual will. God does not force anything.

A non-member who dies within the Church becomes a member of the Church Suffering or the Church Triumphant at death.

A non-member can not be "joined to" "within" or "attached" to the Church unless he has a supernatural faith and perfect charity and dies in a state of sanctifying grace, if he dies in this state he is baptized with the baptism of the Holy Ghost otherwise known as the baptism of "desire" and becomes a full fledged member of the Catholic Church Suffering or Triumphant.

This is Novus Ordo double speak perfectly exemplified.

A non-member remains a non-member so long as he rejects the graces offered to become a member, or would be offered if he were to accept them.

A non-member dies outside the Church, not within it and has no chance for salvation - that's the fate which awaits all non-members (and even most members).

SJB · « **Reply #97 on:** October 23, 2013, 07:04:38 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
It is a real question - you just won't answer it.

As I said, Trent explains it as it is to be understood - they do this precisely so that you do not do what you are doing and so that it cannot be interpreted into teaching something it does not teach.

Whether done on purpose or not, you misunderstand the nature of dogmatic definitions. Definitions by their nature are to define what we believe. Some context is helpful but not necessary. One doesn't interpret a definition, one either accepts it or rejects it. As or me, I accept it as Trent teaches it.

You reject Trent's definitions for a teaching which teaches something completely contradictory, all the while insisting you are doing no such thing. All the while claiming that you are following the teaching of the Church - well, helloooooo, what is Trent if not "the Church"? What is Trent if not the supreme authority over all the Fathers forever? Why would Trent risk relying on anyone else to interpret defined dogma - that is how errors spread.

You wish to think the Holy Ghost through Trent was either incompetent or incapable of teaching precisely what it meant to teach in words the whole world can understand and accept *for the good of their salvation* - or reject under the pretense that a better and a more profound understanding avails somewhere - yours is an idea which V1 explicitly condemned.

If I am in error, you could simply provide some authority that explains the canons the way you understand them. This surely exists, unless you are just flat wrong.

There is no "if" about it, you are in error as I have already repeatedly communicated to you. Even you know you're in error, this is obvious - otherwise you would not avoid answering the question I asked.

Your opinion is duly noted. Now, why don't you help me by citing a source?

Either you can't (because the citation doesn't exist) or you won't because your errors have blinded you to the fact you could be wrong.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #98 on:** October 23, 2013, 07:09:08 AM »

Quote

"Pope Pius XII begins his first section by telling why the Catholic Church is aptly described as a body. He informs us that the Church is thus described because it is a visible and organized, possessing a visible rite of initiation, visible sacramental worship and visible members. It is called the body of Christ because our Lord is at once its founder, its head and its support. The term Mystical Body of Christ is applied to the Church since it is distinct from our Lord's physical body and at the same time superior to an ordinary society or moral body in that it has a principle of unity absolutely independent of and superior to the members.

Fenton

Is there anything incorrect in the above quote?

Stubborn · « **Reply #99 on:** October 23, 2013, 11:47:40 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Your opinion is duly noted. Now, why don't you help me by citing a source?

Either you can't (because the citation doesn't exist) or you won't because your errors have blinded you to the fact you could be wrong.

Right after you answer my question.