Author Topic: How can you defend the salvation dogma with... (Read 8733 times)

Pelele · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2013, 01:53:59 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: SJB
Quote
And in the one in Singulari Quidem he seems to be teaching salvation by default by invincible ignorance.

It seems that way to you because it suits your purposes.

First off, Singulari Quidem is a fallible docuмent, it is not an infallible decree.

Ah the old "it's not infallible" canard.

Oh so since it's "not infallible" it can be HERETICAL? Anything goes since "it's not infallible"?

That argument is riddled with ignorance and its completely false and Protestant.

Non-sedevacantists and the Dimonds are the ones who use that.

Singulari Quidem is an ENCYCLICAL, and they demand assent, as Pius XII said in Humani Generis i believe.

Or maybe you believe Pius XII was wrong there as well?

Quote from: bowler

Secondly, Pius IX does not explain how the person can be saved, what he needs to do and learn. For someone to disregard all the dogmatic decrees on EENS and in their place use this fallible, ambiguous, incomplete docuмent, most certainly would indicate that they are choosing the texts and interpreting them to suit their pre-conceived ideas.

For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2 Tim 4:3)

Ok so the Pope, the teacher of all Christians, writes an Encyclical and what he says about invincible ignorance is flat-out wrong and needs to be resisted.

Even if he had explained how such a person is saved, isn't that still heretical? He says there is an EXCEPTION to hope for life and salvation OUTSIDE the Church.

What does this all mean except that there is salvation OUTSIDE the Church?

bowler · « **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2013, 02:12:06 PM »

It is plain to see by your answer that you do not know enough to discuss the subject, don't keep embarrassing yourself.

Quote

For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2 Tim 4:3)

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2013, 02:20:52 PM »

Quote from: Pelele

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Blessed Pius IX was teaching with the mind of Christ. He reflects Catholic teaching perfectly. The salvation dogma and the Athanasian Creed are not compromised by these teachings. According to St. Thomas Aquinas, God reveals to those in invincible ignorance what they need to know about Christ and His Church before they leave this world.

TRUTH
by
Thomas Aquinas

Question Fourteen: Faith

...Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:19-21).

I know that is what St. Thomas and many other Saints have taught, but that's now what the Pope said.

In QCM he doesn't make it clear whether these people who are saved put off their ignorance and believe in the essential mysteries, or whether they are saved in their ignorance "by the operating power of divine light and grace".

Like i said, it's just ambiguous and could be understood either way.

And in the one in Singulari Quidem he seems to be teaching salvation by default by invincible ignorance.

Singulari Quidem: Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.

This just states that one can "hope" if one is outside the Catholic Church. If he can "hope" then he has not yet been "judged." This does not teach salvation by default, if by that you mean that they die without ever accepting the essential truths of the Catholic faith. Neither does QCM rule out the necessity of knowledge of the essential mysteries.

bowler · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2013, 02:21:47 PM »

My answers in red.

Quote from: Pelele

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: SJB
Quote
And in the one in Singulari Quidem he seems to be teaching salvation by default by invincible ignorance.

It seems that way to you because it suits your purposes.

First off, Singulari Quidem is a fallible docuмent, it is not an infallible decree.

Ah the old "it's not infallible" canard.

Oh so since it's "not infallible" it can be HERETICAL? Anything goes since "it's not infallible"? ( strawman))

That argument is riddled with ignorance and its completely false and Protestant. (the answer to your own strawman)

Non-sedevacantists and the Dimonds are the ones who use that.(ad-hominem attack)

Singulari Quidem is an ENCYCLICAL, and they demand assent (it is an encyclical directed to the bishops of Italy, therefore fallible, and it does not explain how a person can be saved), as Pius XII said in Humani Generis i believe (Exactly, as YOU believe, and not as it is clearly written).

Or maybe you believe Pius XII was wrong there as well? (Strawman)

Quote from: bowler
Secondly, Pius IX does not explain how the person can be saved, what he needs to do and learn. For someone to disregard all the dogmatic decrees on EENS and in their place use this fallible, ambiguous, incomplete docuмent, most certainly would indicate that they are choosing the texts and interpreting them to suit their pre-conceived ideas.

For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2 Tim 4:3)

Ok so the Pope, the teacher of all Christians, writes an Encyclical and what he says about invincible ignorance is flat-out wrong and needs to be resisted.(strawman)

Even if he had explained how such a person is saved, isn't that still heretical? He says there is an EXCEPTION to hope for life and salvation OUTSIDE the Church. (strawman)

What does this all mean except that there is salvation OUTSIDE the Church?(No, it means that you do not know enough to not discuss a subject that you do not understand)

Pelele · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2013, 02:40:10 PM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Singulari Quidem: Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.

This just states that one can "hope" if one is outside the Catholic Church. If he can "hope" then he has not yet been "judged." This does not teach salvation by default, if by that you mean that they die without ever accepting the essential truths of the Catholic faith. Neither does QCM rule out the necessity of knowledge of the essential mysteries.

So if you are a member of the Church but you're in mortal sin, you cannot hope? They haven't been judged yet either.

When i say salvation by default, yes, it means that someone can be saved who never knew of the Church or Jesus or the Trinity etc., the essential mysteries.

People now say "poor people never knew anything, they had no fault of their own, so they should be admitted into Heaven because they just had no chance".

This all flies in the face of the fact that Heaven is a reward. What are these people being awarded for? For not knowing anything?