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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 14583 times)

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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #135 on: June 01, 2018, 12:07:19 AM »
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  • CMRI

    Fr. Dominic Radecki and Francisco Radecki,

    Those outside the Catholic Church can be saved through invincible ignorance; not because they are following a false religion but in spite of it. Why did Christ come down to earth, endure His Passion and death on the cross and establish His own Church if all religions are vehicles of salvation?
    "can be", meaning it is possible; "through" their invincible ignorance, not by it or with it, "in spite of it", because they "are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace".  

    God is not bound.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #136 on: June 01, 2018, 12:13:23 AM »
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  • You placed emphasis on the wrong words.

    Read the first 5 words.

    Slowly
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #137 on: June 01, 2018, 12:22:37 AM »
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  • s l o w l y …
    Those outside the Catholic Church

    e v e n   m o r e   s l o w l y …
    it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

    Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom 'the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.'(Ecuмenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.) The words of Christ are clear enough: 'If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;'(Mt 15.17.) 'He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;'(Lk 10.16.) 'He who does not believe will be condemned;'(Mk 16.16.) 'He who does not believe is already condemned;'(Jn 3.18.) 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.'(Lk 11.23.) The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned;'(Ti 3.11.) the Prince of the Apostles calls them 'false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.'(2 Pt 2.1.)
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #138 on: June 01, 2018, 12:27:50 AM »
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  • John, do you mean to tell me that you think the state of invincible ignorance is an exception to Extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #139 on: June 01, 2018, 12:30:45 AM »
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  • no.  for us, there is no exception, but for God, there is no restriction.
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #140 on: June 01, 2018, 01:04:11 AM »
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  • no.  for us, there is no exception, but for God, there is no restriction.

    There is one restriction, God cannot contradict Himself.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #141 on: June 01, 2018, 04:32:18 AM »
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  • Asking for the third time.....

    The words of God, Who is Truth Himself, said: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    So the only question anyone needs to answer, is: Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

    Yes or no.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #142 on: June 01, 2018, 07:34:32 AM »
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  • Pope Pius IX said,
    Specifically, that they "are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."

    Nowhere does the Pope teach Pelagianism ... as you try to slander him as doing.

    What the Pope is saying that by the virtue (aka power) of divine LIGHT and GRACE, such as these who place no obstacle to their salvation, can be saved.  But, note, nowhere does he see IN THEIR CURRENT STATE of ignorance.  In fact, the DIVINE LIGHT will dispel said ignorance and lead them to the faith.  Stop slandering Pope Pius IX.  In fact, as Father Feeney pointed out, some of Pope Pius IX's advisors reported to him that people had been reading this passage in such a way as to undermine EENS, and the Pope was highly distressed, since he did not intend the teaching the way that they (and you) were taking it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #143 on: June 01, 2018, 07:36:55 AM »
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    Fr. Dominic Radecki and Francisco Radecki,

    What has happened to the Catholic Church? (Kindle Locations 1631-1635). St. Joseph's Media. Kindle Edition.

    Radecki promotes heresy here.  No one can be saved THROUGH ignorance.  Ignorance cannot be salvific but merely exculpatory.  Even LoT used to concede this.  To claim that ignorance saves is nothing short of blatant Pelagian heresy.  It also contradicts Pius IX who teaches that they are saved not by their ignorance but by the action of DIVINE LIGHT.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #144 on: June 01, 2018, 07:37:36 AM »
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  • Asking for the third time.....

    The words of God, Who is Truth Himself, said: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    So the only question anyone needs to answer, is: Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

    Yes or no.

    You'll never get a response.  I think LoT tried to answer this at one point but tripped all over himself.

    Obviously the answer is a categorical NO, since Jesus said NO.

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #145 on: June 01, 2018, 09:57:39 AM »
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  • Asking for the third time.....

    The words of God, Who is Truth Himself, said: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    So the only question anyone needs to answer, is: Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

    Yes or no.
    The answer is no. 

    The_Holy_Gospel_of_Jesus_Christ,_According_to_St._John
    Quote
    3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    respondit Iesus amen amen dico tibi nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu non potest introire in regnum Dei

    This is explained by the Church in the quotes I provided.  To "enter into the kingdom of God" a man must "be born again of water and the Holy Ghost", which is the sacrament of Baptism.  Should the man be forestalled from receiving the sacrament of Baptism by an untimely death, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained, "such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism," because "God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #146 on: June 01, 2018, 10:08:02 AM »
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  • Nowhere does the Pope teach Pelagianism ... as you try to slander him as doing.

    What the Pope is saying that by the virtue (aka power) of divine LIGHT and GRACE, such as these who place no obstacle to their salvation, can be saved.
    Ladislaus, I don't appreciate your misrepresentations.

    I quoted Pope Pius IX as follows:
    Quote
    "7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

    I was very clear to state
    Quote
    "through" their invincible ignorance, not by it or with it, "in spite of it"
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #147 on: June 01, 2018, 10:11:35 AM »
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  • Radecki promotes heresy here.  No one can be saved THROUGH ignorance.  Ignorance cannot be salvific but merely exculpatory.  Even LoT used to concede this.  To claim that ignorance saves is nothing short of blatant Pelagian heresy.  It also contradicts Pius IX who teaches that they are saved not by their ignorance but by the action of DIVINE LIGHT.
    You are misrepresenting what Father Radecki said.  Ignorance is not salvific, no one is saying that.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #148 on: June 01, 2018, 10:15:18 AM »
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    Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, on The Sacraments, Question 68 - Of Those Who Receive Baptism, Second Article - Whether a Man Can Be Saved without Baptism?

    "I answer that, The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wish to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacraments, in regard to those who have the use of free-will.  Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
    Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.  Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

    Ladislaus, Stubborn,
    Do you accept what Saint Thomas Aquinas is saying in the quote above?
    Yes or no
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #149 on: June 01, 2018, 10:23:08 AM »
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    Asking for the third time.....

    The words of God, Who is Truth Himself, said: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    So the only question anyone needs to answer, is: Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

    Yes or no.


    The answer is no.

    The_Holy_Gospel_of_Jesus_Christ,_According_to_St._John
    This is explained by the Church in the quotes I provided.  To "enter into the kingdom of God" a man must "be born again of water and the Holy Ghost", which is the sacrament of Baptism.  Should the man be forestalled from receiving the sacrament of Baptism by an untimely death, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained, "such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism," because "God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."
    So God said man cannot get to heaven without the sacrament of baptism, you say that you agree that man cannot get to heaven without the sacrament of baptism, then you say the Church explains God, who is Himself, truth, means something other than what He explicitly said.

    So that leaves you with four possible conclusions.

    1) God did not mean what He said.
    2) God erred.
    3) The Church erred in her explanation or did not mean what she said.
    4) It was not the Church who explained away God's words. - (This is the correct conclusion).

    A thing cannot both "be", and "not be" at the same time. Which is to say, God's words cannot say that the sacrament is both necessary and not necessary with the same words.

    You agree that God said a man cannot get to heaven without the sacrament, what is it that prompts you to even look for a contradictory explanation?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse