Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent (Read 23541 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #5 on:** April 16, 2018, 08:57:11 AM »

Quote from: Theosist on April 16, 2018, 04:02:47 AM

Are any of you BOD advocates capable of understanding the logical distinction between necessity and sufficiency?

The Council if Trent teaches that baptism or its “desire” are necessary for translation into the state of justification; is doesn’t state anywhere that “desire” is sufficient to effect this.

This is a fact of logic.

Yep. I've made this case before. "cannot happen without" = necessary cause but not sufficient cause. BoDers assumed that this means that the votum is a sufficient cause, but the language says otherwise.

forlorn · « **Reply #6 on:** April 16, 2018, 12:04:42 PM »

If you believe Canon 4 supports Baptism of Desire then you must also believe in Holy Orders of Desire, Matrimony of Desire, Communion of Desire, etc.

Carissima · « **Reply #7 on:** April 16, 2018, 01:20:53 PM »

Quote from: forlorn on April 16, 2018, 12:04:42 PM

If you believe Canon 4 supports Baptism of Desire then you must also believe in Holy Orders of Desire, Matrimony of Desire, Communion of Desire, etc.

I heard a Priest once during a sermon mention ‘confession of desire’.
IMHO that is the last thing the laity need to hear considering those on their deathbeds who need family members to go to great lengths to get them a Priest for Last Sacraments!
If someone stops to think ‘oh well at least grandma/grandpa can have confession of desire, they’ll go to Heaven.’ NOT GOOD. It’s a slippery slope one way or another with this ‘Sacraments of desire stuff’.
Before I had even heard of BOD I did have a general idea for how Baptism worked and always believed that God would provide the Sacrament for those destined to be with Him in Heaven. I think also hearing stories of people in car accidents having a random person show up on the scene to Baptize them could have helped with my understanding also.

forlorn · « **Reply #8 on:** April 16, 2018, 01:44:20 PM »

Quote from: Carissima on April 16, 2018, 01:20:53 PM

I heard a Priest once during a sermon mention ‘confession of desire’.
IMHO that is the last thing the laity need to hear considering those on their deathbeds who need family members to go to great lengths to get them a Priest for Last Sacraments!
If someone stops to think ‘oh well at least grandma/grandpa can have confession of desire, they’ll go to Heaven.’ NOT GOOD. It’s a slippery slope one way or another with this ‘Sacraments of desire stuff’.
Before I had even heard of BOD I did have a general idea for how Baptism worked and always believed that God would provide the Sacrament for those destined to be with Him in Heaven. I think also hearing stories of people in car accidents having a random person show up on the scene to Baptize them could have helped with my understanding also.

Penance of Desire is a thing as defined at Trent, but it's only for cases like martyrs and those who made every attempt to get the Sacrament but were unable to due to circuмstances outside of their control.
But justifying BOD using Trent requires one to straight up ignore the "pure and natural water" canon and also believe that Holy Orders, Matrimony, etc. can be replaced with the "desire" for them.

JoeZ · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2018, 03:18:21 PM »

Quote from: forlorn on April 16, 2018, 01:44:20 PM

Penance of Desire is a thing as defined at Trent, but it's only for cases like martyrs and those who made every attempt to get the Sacrament but were unable to due to circuмstances outside of their control.
But justifying BOD using Trent requires one to straight up ignore the "pure and natural water" canon and also believe that Holy Orders, Matrimony, etc. can be replaced with the "desire" for them.

Please,
where do you find this in Trent. Session 14, chapter IV teaches that man can be reconciled to God before the sacrament is actually received but this is not the same as saying without the sacrament, or that the sacrament can be had by desire. In fact it teaches that contrition is not enough and that a will for the sacrament must be present.

I'm sorry its a bit off topic, but would like to know.
God bless,
JoeZ

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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent (Read 23541 times)

Ladislaus

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent

forlorn

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent

Carissima

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent

forlorn

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent

JoeZ

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent