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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23291 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #190 on: June 05, 2018, 10:17:31 AM »
We must take it step by step for JAM......

Canon IV: "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous ... let him be anathema."

Per the above quote from Trent, the sacraments ("though all the sacraments are not indeed necessary for every individual") are necessary unto salvation. This is indisputable. You must accept this under pain of mortal sin as it is heresy to deny this dogma.


Canon IV continued: And if any one saith that "without the sacraments, or without the desire thereof, men obtain from God, through faith alone, the grace of justification...let him be anathema."

Per the above quote from Trent, the Church teaches that without the sacraments, or without the desire thereof, we do not obtain from God through faith alone, even the grace of justification, let alone eternal salvation. This quote condemns with anathema those who preach a BOD.

Nowhere does Trent (the Church) teach that salvation is both necessary and not necessary without the sacrament, rather, it explicitly condemns with anathema those who say salvation is possible without the sacrament.

Can we at least agree on that?







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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #191 on: June 05, 2018, 10:42:47 AM »
Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 05, 2018, 09:42:29 AM
JohnAnthonyMarie answered - I feel neither obsessed nor bothered by defending truth.  In the same sense, this is neither a life mission nor a conversion attempt.  I am simply providing accurate information on a topic of discussion.

LT asks: then "your truth, your accurate information", is that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation, that one does not have to be  a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved?
your The truth, your the accurate information, would (again) be exactly as Saint Thomas Aquinas describes, "...the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."  I would agree that "people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism", but I, myself, could not go so far as saying without "belief in Christ and the Incarnation".  God alone knows.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #192 on: June 05, 2018, 10:47:08 AM »
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie on June 05, 2018, 10:42:47 AM
your The truth, your the accurate information, would (again) be exactly as Saint Thomas Aquinas describes, "...the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."  I would agree that "people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism", but I, myself, could not go so far as saying without "belief in Christ and the Incarnation".  God alone knows.
I asked you if this is what you believe, I do not need to know why you believe it, that is too long and complicated. Please just answer my question:

LT asks: then "your truth, your accurate information", is that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation, that one does not have to be  a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved?
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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #193 on: June 05, 2018, 10:49:51 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on June 05, 2018, 10:17:31 AM
Canon IV: "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous ... let him be anathema."

Per the above quote from Trent, the sacraments ("though all the sacraments are not indeed necessary for every individual") are necessary unto salvation. This is indisputable.

Canon IV continued: And if any one saith that "without the sacraments, or without the desire thereof, men obtain from God, through faith alone, the grace of justification...let him be anathema."

Per the above quote from Trent, the Church teaches that without the sacraments, or without the desire thereof, we do not obtain from God through faith alone, even the grace of justification, let alone eternal salvation. This quote condemns with anathema those who preach a BOD.

Nowhere does Trent (the Church) teach that salvation is both necessary and not necessary without the sacrament, rather, it explicitly condemns with anathema those who say salvation is possible without the sacrament.

Can we at least agree on that?
no, I can't agree with your conjecture.  I have no difficulty whatsoever with Canon IV, but I disagree with you that it "condemns with anathema" baptism of desire.  In fact, the canon specifically says, "or without the desire thereof".
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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #194 on: June 05, 2018, 10:54:45 AM »
Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 05, 2018, 10:47:08 AM
I asked you if this is what you believe, I do not need to know why you believe it, that is too long and complicated. Please just answer my question:

LT asks: then "your truth, your accurate information", is that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation, that one does not have to be  a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved?
I answered your question, but I'll repeat, no, that's not what I believe.  I said, "I would agree that 'people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism', but I could not go so far as saying without 'belief in Christ and the Incarnation'."  Like I said, God alone knows, and if God so wills it, anything can be done.
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