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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 14416 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #150 on: June 01, 2018, 10:24:46 AM »
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  • Ladislaus, Stubborn,
    Do you accept what Saint Thomas Aquinas is saying in the quote above?
    Yes or no
    No.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #151 on: June 01, 2018, 10:29:08 AM »
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  • Again, the answer is very simple, read it again, slowly

    Quote
    "The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wish to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacraments, in regard to those who have the use of free-will.  Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
    Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.  Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

    Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, on The Sacraments,
    Question 68 - Of Those Who Receive Baptism,
    Second Article - Whether a Man Can Be Saved without Baptism?


    I asked if you accept this.  You answered "no".  This then concludes our conversation.
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #152 on: June 01, 2018, 10:35:15 AM »
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  • Again, the answer is very simple, read it again, slowly
    Do you, or do you not, accept this?  Yes or No
    It is very simple, we have God Himself saying:
    "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    Then there is St. Thomas saying:
    "And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism."

    No brainer. For as great as St. Thomas is, he is not God - even he realized that he in fact could be wrong about this, as he is quoted as saying: "Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world."

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #153 on: June 01, 2018, 10:50:52 AM »
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  • St Thomas is not the Catholic Church.  He didn't invent Baptism, nor the process of salvation.  All ecuмenical councils and dogmatic definitions trump St Thomas, as he would readily admit.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #154 on: June 01, 2018, 12:03:03 PM »
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  • The answer is no.

    The_Holy_Gospel_of_Jesus_Christ,_According_to_St._John
    This is explained by the Church in the quotes I provided.  To "enter into the kingdom of God" a man must "be born again of water and the Holy Ghost", which is the sacrament of Baptism.  Should the man be forestalled from receiving the sacrament of Baptism by an untimely death, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained, "such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism," because "God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."


    Your answer is nonsense.  You say no, but then quote St. Thomas as saying yes.  Which is it?  I have an answer that BoDers could use, but this response of yours is contradictory nonsense.  And you take no trouble to resolve the contradiction but are happy to live with it.


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #155 on: June 01, 2018, 12:05:09 PM »
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  • You have the definitions from the Council of Trent (1545-1563)
    Quote
    Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
        "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

    Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
        "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).


    That agree with the teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) who the Council Fathers held in esteem
    Quote
    "The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wish to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacraments, in regard to those who have the use of free-will.  Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
    Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.  Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

    And the same teaching from Saint Alphonsus Liguori (1691-1787) which specifically mentions the Council of Trent and John 3:5
    Quote
    But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of wind' ['flaminis'] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ['flamen']. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon 'Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato' and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'

    With the same truth held in Canon Law (1917)
    Quote
    CAN. 737.
    § 1. Baptismus, Sacramentorum ianua ac fundamentum, omnibus in re vel saltem in voto necessarius ad salutem, valide non confertur, nisi per ablutionem aquae verae et naturalis cuм praescripta verborum forma.
    § 2. cuм ministratur servatis omnibus ritibus et caeremoniis quae in ritualibus libris praecipiuntur, appellatur sollemnis; secus, non sollemnis seu privutus.

    Quote
    "Baptism is called the gate to, and the foundation of, the other Sacraments, because without it no other Sacrament can be validly received.  The Church has ever taught that Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, - either really or by desire - and that consequently no other sacrament can be validly received without it.  Thus ordination would be invalid and imprint no indelible character if the ordinandus had not been baptized.  This necessity of Baptism is called necessitas medii, necessity of means, because without it salvation cannot be obtained.  The reason for this absolute necessity lies in the words of Our Lord, John III, 5.  Either in re or in voto signifies that the baptismus fluminis or flaminis or sanguinis is sufficient."

    And the common consent of Catholic theologians being "theologically certain" as either Catholic doctrine or de fide (of the faith)
    Quote

    So there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Baptism of Desire and of Blood are truths of the Catholic Church that can not be denied.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #156 on: June 01, 2018, 12:05:30 PM »
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  • You are misrepresenting what Father Radecki said.  Ignorance is not salvific, no one is saying that.

    Both you and Radecki are saying exactly that.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #157 on: June 01, 2018, 12:07:40 PM »
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  • So there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Baptism of Desire and of Blood are truths of the Catholic Church that can not be denied.

    Good for you.  Nobody else here cares what's in your mind.

    You distort and misread Trent, as well as the Code of Canon Law.  St. Alphonsus misjudged the authority of a particular papal letter and wrongly assigned the note of de fide to the proposition on that account.  Rest is just a bunch of anti-EENS neo-Pelagians flocking together for cover.  And you take cover among the same.


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #158 on: June 01, 2018, 12:15:42 PM »
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  • Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #159 on: June 01, 2018, 12:28:16 PM »
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  • "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #160 on: June 01, 2018, 12:33:53 PM »
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  • Baptism of Desire and Theological Principals by Rev. Anthony Cekada
    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/BaptDes-Proofed.pdf
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #161 on: June 01, 2018, 12:44:40 PM »
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  • Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #162 on: June 01, 2018, 12:46:26 PM »
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  • Radecki's heresy:

    Quote
    Those outside the Catholic Church can be saved

    This is a word-for-word denial of Catholic dogma promoted by Radecki ... and endorsed by JAM.

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #163 on: June 01, 2018, 12:50:58 PM »
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  • Radecki's heresy:

    This is a word-for-word denial of Catholic dogma promoted by Radecki ... and endorsed by JAM.
    It is you that denies Catholic Truth.

    Q: How many Feeneyites does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
    A: Just one, the Feeneyite simply holds the lightbulb and the whole world revolves around him.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #164 on: June 01, 2018, 12:51:51 PM »
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  •  :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:


    :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse