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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23292 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #150 on: June 01, 2018, 10:24:46 AM »
Ladislaus, Stubborn,
Do you accept what Saint Thomas Aquinas is saying in the quote above?
Yes or no
No.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #151 on: June 01, 2018, 10:29:08 AM »
Again, the answer is very simple, read it again, slowly

Quote
"The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wish to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacraments, in regard to those who have the use of free-will.  Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.  Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, on The Sacraments,
Question 68 - Of Those Who Receive Baptism,
Second Article - Whether a Man Can Be Saved without Baptism?


I asked if you accept this.  You answered "no".  This then concludes our conversation.


Offline Stubborn

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #152 on: June 01, 2018, 10:35:15 AM »
Again, the answer is very simple, read it again, slowly
Do you, or do you not, accept this?  Yes or No
It is very simple, we have God Himself saying:
"Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Then there is St. Thomas saying:
"And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism."

No brainer. For as great as St. Thomas is, he is not God - even he realized that he in fact could be wrong about this, as he is quoted as saying: "Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world."


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #153 on: June 01, 2018, 10:50:52 AM »
St Thomas is not the Catholic Church.  He didn't invent Baptism, nor the process of salvation.  All ecuмenical councils and dogmatic definitions trump St Thomas, as he would readily admit.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #154 on: June 01, 2018, 12:03:03 PM »
The answer is no.

The_Holy_Gospel_of_Jesus_Christ,_According_to_St._John
This is explained by the Church in the quotes I provided.  To "enter into the kingdom of God" a man must "be born again of water and the Holy Ghost", which is the sacrament of Baptism.  Should the man be forestalled from receiving the sacrament of Baptism by an untimely death, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained, "such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism," because "God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."


Your answer is nonsense.  You say no, but then quote St. Thomas as saying yes.  Which is it?  I have an answer that BoDers could use, but this response of yours is contradictory nonsense.  And you take no trouble to resolve the contradiction but are happy to live with it.