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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: poche on December 03, 2017, 11:35:45 PM

Title: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on December 03, 2017, 11:35:45 PM
 Are many Protestants saved?
By the mercy of God a certain number of Protestants are saved, but their Purgatory is for many long and rigorous. It is true they have not abused grace like many Catholics, but neither have they had the marvelous graces of the sacraments and the other helps of the true religion, thus their expiation in Purgatory is prolonged.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6253
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Neil Obstat on December 04, 2017, 12:06:46 AM
Are many Protestants saved?
By the mercy of God a certain number of Protestants are saved, but their Purgatory is for many long and rigorous. It is true they have not abused grace like many Catholics, but neither have they had the marvelous graces of the sacraments and the other helps of the true religion, thus their expiation in Purgatory is prolonged.
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Protestants don't believe in Purgatory why would they go there?
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No Protestant, as a Protestant, can ever go to Heaven this is a defined Catholic dogma and if you don't believe it then you can't go to heaven, either, as if you were Protestant.
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Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Maria Regina on December 04, 2017, 12:53:00 AM
Protestants are not saved. See this article below.

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/the-mystery-of-the-wizard-clip/
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Stubborn on December 04, 2017, 05:38:40 AM
Are many Protestants saved?

 And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on December 04, 2017, 08:21:15 AM
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Protestants don't believe in Purgatory why would they go there?
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No Protestant, as a Protestant, can ever go to Heaven this is a defined Catholic dogma and if you don't believe it then you can't go to heaven, either, as if you were Protestant.
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They would go there if God in His mercy decides that they should go there. 
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Ladislaus on December 04, 2017, 08:53:26 AM
No, there are no Protestants who are saved.  Period.  It's heresy to state otherwise.  Only Catholics can be saved.  Have you read any of the dogmatic definitions, poche?

Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Ladislaus on December 04, 2017, 08:54:23 AM
They would go there if God in His mercy decides that they should go there.

Purgatory is only for those who are going to be saved, and we know with the certainty of faith that Protestants cannot be saved.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Last Tradhican on December 04, 2017, 09:10:44 AM
Quote
They would go there if God in His mercy decides that they should go there.
Unfortunately for Protestants, this is what 99.99% of Catholics believe and teach today.

It reminds me of what Catholics say today when a relative is on his last days before death; "Don't call a priest, it'll scare him to death".

Milquetoast "Catholics" like that are a curse upon Catholics, fallen away Catholics, and all non-Catholics.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Neil Obstat on December 04, 2017, 07:31:09 PM
Unfortunately for Protestants, this is what 99.99% of Catholics believe and teach today.
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How do you arrive at the figure, 99.99%?
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Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on December 05, 2017, 03:28:22 AM
Protestants are not saved. See this article below.

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/the-mystery-of-the-wizard-clip/
According to the soul in Purgatory they are not saved because of their protestantism, but in spite of it. The soul acknowledged that the Protestants do not receive as many graces as Catholics but also that there are many Catholics who abuse these graces.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Last Tradhican on December 05, 2017, 03:48:23 AM
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How do you arrive at the figure, 99.99%?
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That is my experience in the USA. Strict EENSers are a rare find. Moreover, in my experience, most Catholics know nothing about the faith to begin with, all  they know is "ask Father".

What is your experience? 
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Last Tradhican on December 05, 2017, 03:50:24 AM

Quote
According to the soul in Purgatory they are not saved because of their protestantism, but in spite of it. The soul acknowledged that the Protestants do not receive as many graces as Catholics but also that there are many Catholics who abuse these graces.
For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2Tim 4:3) 
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Ladislaus on December 05, 2017, 08:04:11 AM
According to the soul in Purgatory they are not saved because of their protestantism, but in spite of it. The soul acknowledged that the Protestants do not receive as many graces as Catholics but also that there are many Catholics who abuse these graces.

Well, according to Catholic DOGMA (vs. "the soul in Purgatory"), Protestants cannot be saved.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Neil Obstat on December 05, 2017, 09:59:45 AM

Quote from: Neil Obstat on December 03, 2017, 10:06:46 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/from-a-soul-in-purgatory/msg582290/#msg582290)
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No Protestant, as a Protestant, can ever go to Heaven ....

Could you explain what you mean here? Thanks
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Any Protestant at the point of death who remains a Protestant and dies that way cannot be saved.
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No one like that can ever go to heaven.
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There are no Protestants in heaven.
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There can be converts FROM Protestantism in heaven, or those who WERE Protestants and became Catholics.
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Consequently, there are no Protestants in Purgatory, either, contrary to poche's silly quote of Modernist rubbish.
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Protestants  as Protestants do not go to Purgatory, and it comes as no surprise that they don't believe in Purgatory.
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They don't believe in the very thing that could save them if they were to believe in it, ironically.
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Because a Protestant who at the point of death gives up his Protestantism and accepts the Catholic truth might be eligible to go to Purgatory (with God's discretion and perfect contrition) and could thereby be purged of his sins since he died with perfect contrition.
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This is more rare than one might think because perfect contrition is very difficult even for devout Catholics.
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When someone doesn't believe in hell, there is a difference, because you don't have to believe in hell to go there.
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This is part of the great difference between Purgatory and hell. 
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When I asked poche the question, that was his opportunity to provide the correct answer, but he missed his chance.
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Protestants can go to hell even if they don't believe in hell, but they can't go to Purgatory if they don't believe in Purgatory.
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Purgatory is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith and to deny one doctrine of the Faith is to deny the whole thing.
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No one who accepts the Catholic Faith disbelieves in Purgatory, and accepting the Catholic Faith is the only way of being able to go to Purgatory in the first place.
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Everyone has two choices:
1)  Believe the Catholic Faith, which includes believing in Purgatory, and be eligible for Purgatory and eventually heaven, 
............. or, 
2)  Don't believe the Catholic Faith, even if it's just your refusal to believe in Purgatory, and consequently go directly to hell.
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Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Neil Obstat on December 05, 2017, 10:20:31 AM

Quote from: Neil Obstat on Yesterday at 05:31:09 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/from-a-soul-in-purgatory/msg582486/#msg582486)
Quote
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How do you arrive at the figure, 99.99%?
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That is my experience in the USA. Strict EENSers are a rare find. Moreover, in my experience, most Catholics know nothing about the faith to begin with, all  they know is "ask Father".

What is your experience?
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I haven't taken my own poll, and I don't know 10,000 people who are random statistical representatives of the entire USA. 
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Since you are employing four significant figures your margin of error would be one in ten thousand, unless otherwise stated. 
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You didn't mention anything about your margin of error. Maybe you don't know what margin of error is.
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If your error were greater than one in ten thousand then you wouldn't be using four significant figures......
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That is, presuming you know what you're talking about.
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Unless your use of four figures is due to ignorance, in which case, you don't know what you're talking about.
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If you mean to say "the vast majority," then you ought to say that instead of "99.99%" which has a specific meaning.
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99.9% implies an error of one in one thousand, unless otherwise stated.
99% implies an error of one in one hundred, unless otherwise stated.
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To validly state 99% you would be saying you know at least one hundred people who are representative of the entire USA.
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Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Neil Obstat on December 05, 2017, 10:27:32 AM
Those ears are itching so bad these days, makes me wonder if they have been infected with poison ivy...
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Just this past week, I have heard 3 different people, who probably don't even know each other, but they all said the same thing, generally speaking.
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They said they were "raised Catholic" then proceeded to pronounce their belief in reincarnation.
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It made me wonder, how long before Bishop of Rome Francis chimes in on reincarnation? 
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When the frequency of reincarnation adherents reaches critical mass?
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Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on December 27, 2017, 04:55:23 AM
From the Baltimore Catechism;

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on December 27, 2017, 11:08:40 PM
When there is conflict of messages the infallible teaching of the Church are to be believed FIRST!

From the Vatican I Council:

6. Now, although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the mind, yet no one can accept the gospel preaching in the way that is necessary for achieving salvation without the inspiration and illumination of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth.

Do you see the conflict here? If you believe Q. 510 # 2, then you would have to disagree with the Vatican I council. You would be either confessing that the Holy Spirit teaches error, which would be blaspheme. Or a person could achieve salvation without the illumination of the Holy Spirit.
That appears to say the same thing as the Baltimore Catechism.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: OHCA on January 03, 2018, 10:14:56 PM
According to the soul in Purgatory they are not saved because of their protestantism, but in spite of it. The soul acknowledged that the Protestants do not receive as many graces as Catholics but also that there are many Catholics who abuse these graces.
This is an example of the limitless mental somersaults of the Bogus Ordo theologians.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: trad123 on January 04, 2018, 11:49:41 PM
That appears to say the same thing as the Baltimore Catechism.

A Protestant firmly believing the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion is antithetical to accepting and believing the truth. The Protestant who dies believing in his creed accepts and believes in a falsehood.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on January 06, 2018, 12:12:24 AM
A Protestant firmly believing the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion is antithetical to accepting and believing the truth. The Protestant who dies believing in his creed accepts and believes in a falsehood.
What you are saying contradicts the Baltimore Catechism.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Merry on January 06, 2018, 12:05:49 PM
Poche, how long have you been on this website, and read all the BOD/BOB and Modernist presentations, and have yet to pick up on how the Baltimore Catechism was put together by the liberals of the American Hierarchy, at a time when they were not just (beginning to be?) influenced by Masonry, but also in the business of getting along with the non-Catholics of the United States, and making salvation a non-challenge to those souls?  They would not tell them there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.  And then, even if they mentioned that, or the phrase "One True Church," they would soften the requirements with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.

I know people who were never taught BOB/BOD - and catechisms other than the Baltimore which NEVER mentions it.  The catechisms prior to the Baltimore catechism in this country did not mention it.

What do you think Pope Leo's slap down of the U.S. Hierarchy via his condemnation of Americanism was all about?  In it he stated his alarm at the liberalism here, and that Catholicism as taught in America had better be the same as that taught in the rest of the world.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on January 07, 2018, 02:02:56 AM
Poche, how long have you been on this website, and read all the BOD/BOB and Modernist presentations, and have yet to pick up on how the Baltimore Catechism was put together by the liberals of the American Hierarchy, at a time when they were not just (beginning to be?) influenced by Masonry, but also in the business of getting along with the non-Catholics of the United States, and making salvation a non-challenge to those souls?  They would not tell them there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.  And then, even if they mentioned that, or the phrase "One True Church," they would soften the requirements with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.

I know people who were never taught BOB/BOD - and catechisms other than the Baltimore which NEVER mentions it.  The catechisms prior to the Baltimore catechism in this country did not mention it.

What do you think Pope Leo's slap down of the U.S. Hierarchy via his condemnation of Americanism was all about?  In it he stated his alarm at the liberalism here, and that Catholicism as taught in America had better be the same as that taught in the rest of the world.
A Catechism of Christian Doctrine, Prepared and Enjoined by Order of the Third Council of Baltimore, or simply the Baltimore Catechism,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Catechism#cite_note-1) was the official national catechism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism) for children in the United States of America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America), based on Robert Bellarmine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bellarmine)'s 1614 Small Catechism. The first such catechism written for Catholics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church) in North America, it was the standard Catholic school text in the country from 1885 to the late 1960s. It was officially replaced by the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults in 2004, based on the revised universal Catechism of the Catholic Church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church).
In response to a personal copyright taken out by Bishop John Lancaster Spalding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lancaster_Spalding),[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Catechism#cite_note-2) various editions include annotations or other modifications. While the approved text had to remain the same in the catechisms, by adding maps, glossaries or definitions publishers could copyright and sell their own version of the catechism. The Baltimore Catechism remained in use in nearly all Catholic schools until many moved away from catechism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism)-based education, though it is still used in some.
Contents
 [hide]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Catechism

The Baltimore Catechism is hardly a liberal novus ordoite catechism.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Merry on January 07, 2018, 04:47:51 PM
You believe Wikipedia - notoriously written by liberals to push their various agendas?  

The catechisms used in the US before the liberal Baltimore Catechism, did not have BOD/BOB.  Neither did the original Trent catechism, or St. Robert Bellarmine's nor the Irish (Penny) Catechism.  

You don't seem to get what the Conspiracy has done in the Church, how it operates, or how it has made inroads in the United States.  It specifically hates No Salvation outside the Catholic Church.  At the time of the French Revolution, their leaders would say, "If anyone says 'there is no salvation outside the Church' - let him be driven from the state!" This is why they pushed ecumenism at the Vatican II Council, and why Fr. Feeney was so inconvenient for them.

 "Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." - Jn 3:5

Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: MyrnaM on January 07, 2018, 05:58:19 PM
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Protestants don't believe in Purgatory why would they go there?
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No Protestant, as a Protestant, can ever go to Heaven this is a defined Catholic dogma and if you don't believe it then you can't go to heaven, either, as if you were Protestant.
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This is exactly correct as bolded it hints to the fact that God's grace, in the end, could bring him to the Catholic Faith, unknown to the world but known to God.  He took his last breath in God's good grace just as the thief who some say stoled heaven and died a Catholic.  Perfect Act of Contrition. Yet, Purgatory and Our Lady told the Fatima children that their little friend (I think her name was Amelia) would be in Purgatory till the end of time, and she was just a child.  

We don't know for sure how many souls were given the grace of a Perfect Act of Contrition, but we can hope and pray for God's mercy in that regard.  Since the Church teaches that there is such a grace.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: MyrnaM on January 07, 2018, 06:00:25 PM
And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
That quote might be just as applicable to a novus ordo "catholic".  We don't know how God judges a soul, so work out your salvation in fear and trembling as St. Paul says. 
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: JPaul on April 11, 2018, 07:56:40 PM
From the Baltimore Catechism;

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
It does not matter what he believes. If he does not know that the Church is the True Church, it is he that is at fault, because he ought to know that it is. He is obliged to have found the truth of the Catholic Religion.
This individual firmly believes and practices a meaningless and false religion which will gain him nothing but eternal damnation.
This is all speculation by which to satisfy the human need for a way other than that which the
Lord has set down and reguires of each man who would be saved.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: forlorn on April 12, 2018, 05:20:43 PM
From the Baltimore Catechism;

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
it is pretty much impossible for any non-Catholic over the age of reason to die without mortal sin. without penance that one time they masturbated as a teen will still damn them even if they lived a near perfect life otherwise. 
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: xavierpope on April 12, 2018, 08:17:55 PM
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Protestants don't believe in Purgatory why would they go there?
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No Protestant, as a Protestant, can ever go to Heaven this is a defined Catholic dogma and if you don't believe it then you can't go to heaven, either, as if you were Protestant.
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Then why did padre pio tell his co-monks to pray for the soul of the king of england... who was protestant.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on April 12, 2018, 10:43:47 PM
It does not matter what he believes. If he does not know that the Church is the True Church, it is he that is at fault, because he ought to know that it is. He is obliged to have found the truth of the Catholic Religion.
This individual firmly believes and practices a meaningless and false religion which will gain him nothing but eternal damnation.
This is all speculation by which to satisfy the human need for a way other than that which the
Lord has set down and reguires of each man who would be saved.
If a person's ignorance is invincible then his judgement is very different from one who was raised as a Catholic. Jesus said, "To whom much is given, much will be required." and also, The servant who knew his master's wishes will recieve more stripes than the one who didn't." The angels sang at the birth of Christ, "et pax hominis bonae voluntatis." (and peace to men of good will.) they did not sing "et pax bonae Catholicam."    
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on April 12, 2018, 10:44:25 PM
it is pretty much impossible for any non-Catholic over the age of reason to die without mortal sin. without penance that one time they masturbated as a teen will still damn them even if they lived a near perfect life otherwise.
It is said that the Blessed Imelda died without mortal sin.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: trad123 on April 14, 2018, 03:09:48 PM
It is said that the Blessed Imelda died without mortal sin.

poche, forlon stated "any non-Catholic", why bring up a Catholic example? Applies and oranges.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: trad123 on April 14, 2018, 03:17:15 PM
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If a person's ignorance is invincible then his judgement is very different from one who was raised as a Catholic.

Who will contest that?

Father Michael Muller's writing on invincible ignorance has been posted and quoted in threads, many times. It neither saves nor damns a person.

To paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinas, one who keeps the moral law will learn the truths of the faith, by an angel if necessary.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: poche on April 14, 2018, 10:24:48 PM
it is pretty much impossible for any non-Catholic over the age of reason to die without mortal sin. without penance that one time they masturbated as a teen will still damn them even if they lived a near perfect life otherwise.
If they make an act of perfect contrition then they can be saved. 
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Ladislaus on April 15, 2018, 07:40:11 AM
If they make an act of perfect contrition then they can be saved.

Uhm, mortal sin isn't even an issue on the radar if someone is not Catholic, is outside the Church, and does not have supernatural faith.  Perfect contrition is not possible for someone who isn't a Catholic. You guys really have gone full Pelagian, haven't you?

Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: forlorn on April 15, 2018, 10:21:58 AM
Uhm, mortal sin isn't even an issue on the radar if someone is not Catholic, is outside the Church, and does not have supernatural faith.  Perfect contrition is not possible for someone who isn't a Catholic. You guys really have gone full Pelagian, haven't you?
BOD is definitely Pelagian. These people claim to believe in original sin and yet deny it has any effects whatsoever. 
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Theosist on April 15, 2018, 01:47:55 PM
It is said that the Blessed Imelda died without mortal sin.
It is said! Well that proves it then! And especially of those who do not have the life of the Trinity within them!
Poche has managed to outdo even the idea of baptism by implicit desire: those of “good will” are now not sanctified at death if they haven’t been able to be baptised but are instead translated into the state of sanctifying grace during their life by their implicit desire! How much more then is every Catechumen sanctified the moment he resolves to be baptised, before the sacrament is even received! Hallelujah! Baptism is entirely redundant! 
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Theosist on April 15, 2018, 01:59:04 PM
If they make an act of perfect contrition then they can be saved.
 Perfect contrition is impossible without supernatural faith, which is impossible without having already been translated into the state of sanctifying grace which this act of perfect contrition is posited by you to effect.
This is an inescapable logical circle.
Not only that, but perfect contrition cannot remove original sin, that is, effect what the Council of Trent formulates as a translation from being born sons of Adam to being adopted sons of God through Christ. Have you missed the essential point of the Gospel? Have you even read them and St. Paul? We are reborn through faith - not contrition, not hope, not charity, not good works - through faith, faith in Jesus Christ. None of these other things can even please God without faith - they count for absolutely nothing   at the judgment of our soul without it.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Theosist on April 15, 2018, 02:05:09 PM
BOD is definitely Pelagian. These people claim to believe in original sin and yet deny it has any effects whatsoever.
This is not even Christianity anymore. Denial of the necessity of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a denial of the central theme of the Catholic doctrine of justification and of the Gospel itself. I don’t even know how it’s possible for someone to open the New Testament and read and maintain this nonsense.
Title: Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
Post by: Theosist on April 15, 2018, 02:20:17 PM
Question: was Adam originally without sin?

Next question: was this sinless state sufficient for Adam, who was immortal, to earn or possess the Beatific Vision?

Final question: if this was not sufficient for Adam before he fell, how do you imagine that dying without sin but also without Christ , even if that were possible, would be sufficient to get to Heaven?

Heaven cannot be earned. It is a gift, and that gift begins with the life of the Trinity within us that we obtain through faith and the sacrament of faith. What does it matter if I am spotless and do not know Christ? The most I could hope for would be freedom from the positive punishments of Hell.