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Author Topic: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus  (Read 6400 times)

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Offline SPelli

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Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2023, 05:08:32 PM »
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  • Yes, She does, because that's what EENS means.  We MUST uphold the doctrine that all those who die outside of the Church cannot be saved.  This is a general principle.

    We only have to affirm the positive, not the negative.  What we must affirm is that there's no salvation outside the Church. What we don't affirm - and what the Church doesn't affirm - is that all those, or any one in particular, who dies visibly separated from the Church, and objectively in schism, is damned. 


    Quote
    But the Church does not say person A is condemned (specifically).  But She does say they cannot be saved, generally speaking.  These 2 principles are not a contradiction because salvation is a mystery.

    I agree, but the way I would phrase it is that to be saved, a person must be united internally to the Church perfectly and in re, and must be united to her externally at least in voto.



    Quote
    Maybe it won't prevent salvation, maybe it will.  The dogma of EENS skews the answer to they will not be saved, but we don't know.

    Material schism will definitely not prevent salvation.  That is certain, since material schism, as such, is not a sin.  It could indirectly prevent salvation if, for example, the schismatic in good faith received invalid absolutions due to his priest lacking faculties, but it will not directly prevent salvation, since material schism, as such, is not a sin.


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    There's no dogma that says I must believe those in material heresy can be saved.  Ridiculous.

    I agree, but it is a dogma that baptism confers faith, hope and charity on those below the age of reason (and above the age of reason if not obstacle is placed in the way); it is also certain that faith, hope and charity are only lost by mortal sin, and that those who die with faith hope and charity (in the state of grace) are saved.  Since it is also certain that material schism is not a mortal sin that deprives a person of faith, hope or charity, we must affirm that material schism, as such, does not prevent salvation.   


    Quote
    If they weren't guilty of heresy/schism then they are catholic and not schismatic.  But only God knows this.  If they were "visibly" attached to a schismatic/heretical church (and not reconciled to the Catholic Faith) then we must proclaim their salvation is in doubt.  Only God knows.

    But if the baptized individuals who are not guilty of heresy/schism are Catholics, it would follow that Protestants in good faith - who belong to a Protestant denomination - would be Catholics. Is that really what you believe?  That's not what the Church teaches, since a Protestant in good faith still has to formally convert to the Catholic Church to be confirmed, for example. 

    In my opinion, the best way to explain it is by using the body/soul distinction, as Pius X does in his catechism. This is how he explains it:

    21 Q. What is the constitution of the Church of Jesus Christ?

    A. The Church of Jesus Christ has been constituted as a true and perfect Society; and in her we can distinguish a soul and a body.



    22 Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist?

    A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.



    23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?

    A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government.



    24 Q. To be saved, is it enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church?

    A. No, to be saved it is not enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church; it is necessary to be a living member.



    29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
    A.  If he is outside the Church [i.e., outside the body of the Church, which is the visible Church] through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation





    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #16 on: June 13, 2023, 05:25:53 PM »
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  • Quote
    What we don't affirm - and what the Church doesn't affirm - is that all those, or any one in particular, who dies visibly separated from the Church, and objectively in schism, is damned.
    Yes we do affirm this.  If Mary Sue Orthodox dies, we affirm the doctrine that she cannot be saved as she *appeared* to die.  If She was saved, then she converted by some miracle which only God knows about.  But as it *appears* she died outside the Church.  Which is why the Church doesn’t allow her to be buried in a catholic cemetery or have a funeral mass.  



    Quote
    That is certain, since material schism, as such, is not a sin.
    It would only be sin-free for a temporary period, for those newly converted to orthodoxy or young children.  


    For most, it absolutely is a sin since everyone has a duty to follow truth, pray for God's will and know their faith.  All those in material schism are guilty of the sin of ignorance either due to laziness or as a punishment for other sins.  St Thomas explains ignorance quote clearly as culpable and self-inflicted.  

    Obstinate schism/heresy is just being 100% culpable.  But both types are culpable to some degree.  


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #17 on: June 13, 2023, 05:54:09 PM »
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  • 1) You can't be in formal submission to something that doesn't exist.  During an interregnum, Catholics who await the election of the new Pope by the Cardinals are in potential submission to the Pope, but not formal submission.  2) It depends on why the person is mistaken.  Is it because the person was a missionary in America in the 18th century, and didn't know that the former Pope died and a new one had been elected (as in the case of Juniper Serra), or is it because the person rejects the Pope that was elected by the Cardinals and accepted by the entire teaching Church, and instead accepts another, or no one, as the legitimate Pope?  In the latter case, the "mistake" would not constitute formal or potential submission to the Holy Father, nor would it excuse the person from his failure to do what is absolutely necessary for salvation.
    Wow! That statement betrays a deep ignorance of the Western Schism and how the Church resolved that crisis. As say this as one formally trained in Church history (graduate degrees) as Ladislaus can verify.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline SPelli

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #18 on: June 13, 2023, 06:19:47 PM »
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  • Wow! That statement betrays a deep ignorance of the Western Schism and how the Church resolved that crisis. As say this as one formally trained in Church history (graduate degrees) as Ladislaus can verify.


    Please point out the error so I can benefit from your knowledge.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #19 on: June 13, 2023, 09:32:10 PM »
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  • In my opinion, the best way to explain it is by using the body/soul distinction, as Pius X does in his catechism. This is how he explains it:

    [ . . . ]


    29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

    A.  If he is outside the Church [i.e., outside the body of the Church, which is the visible Church] through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation



    On the way of salvation, indeed.

    Notice that it
    did not say that they would die in such a state.



    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/



    Quote
    Fr. Michael Müller also wrote a catechism titled “Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine.” He writes:

    Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?

    A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.




    St. Chrysostom

    Homily 60 on the Gospel of John


    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240160.htm




    Quote
    John 10:16


    For other sheep also I have, which are not of this fold, them also must I bring.

    Observe again, the word must, here used, does not express necessity, but is declaratory of something which will certainly come to pass. As though He had said, Why marvel ye if these shall follow Me, and if My sheep shall hear My voice? When you shall see others also following Me and hearing My voice, then shall you be astonished more. And be not confounded when you hear Him say, which are not of this fold , for the difference relates to the Law only, as also Paul says, Neither circuмcision avails anything, nor uncircuмcision.

    Them also must I bring. He shows that both these and those were scattered and mixed, and without shepherds, because the good Shepherd had not yet come. Then He proclaims beforehand their future union, that,

    They shall be one fold.

    Which same thing also Paul declared, saying, For to make in Himself of two one new man. Ephesians 2:15




    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #20 on: June 13, 2023, 09:42:49 PM »
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  • The Athanasian Creed

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm




    Quote
    Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.




    Pius IX - 1849
    Nostis Et Nobiscuм
    On the Church in the Pontifical States

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9nostis.htm





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    10. In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.






    Mirari Vos
    On Liberalism and Religious Indifferentism
    Gregory XVI - 1832




    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm




    Quote
    13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.

    Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever.

    They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”





    Pope Gregory XVI - 1832

    Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm





    Quote
    2. Therefore, guided by the example of Our predecessors, We are grieved to hear reports from your dioceses which indicate that some of the people committed to your care freely encourage mixed marriages.


    Furthermore, they are promoting opinions contrary to the Catholic faith:


    [ . . . ]

    Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.





    Pius IX

    On Promotion of False Doctrines, 1863

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm




    Quote
    7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

    19.

    (. . .)

    Let us pray that the errant be flooded with the light of his divine grace, may turn back from the path of error into the way of truth and justice and, experiencing the worthy fruit of repentance, may possess perpetual love and fear of his holy name.





    Leo XIII

    On Mission Societies, 1880

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13mis.htm




    Quote
    6.

    [ . . . ]

    Do men like these pour forth their prayers to God that in His mercy he may bring to the Divine light of the Gospel by His victorious grace the people sitting in the darkness?




    Pius IX

    Allocution to the cardinals on the Consistory of the 17th of December, 1847:

    The life of Pope Pius IX and the great events in the history of the Church during his pontificate by John Gilmary Shea, published 1877, pgs. 97 - 103

    https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfPopePiusIX1877





    Quote
    It is assuredly not unknown to you, venerable brethren, that in our times many of the enemies of the Catholic faith especially direct their efforts toward placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or of confounding it therewith, and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions.


    But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system. (. . .) as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life." We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.





    Pope Pius XI - 1928
    Mortalium Animos
    On Religious Unity



    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius11/p11morta.htm



    Quote
    13.

    [ . . . ]

    We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity.







    Saint John Eudes

    Man's Contract with God in Baptism

    pages 49 - 52


    https://archive.org/details/MansContractWithGodInBaptism/page/n45/mode/2up



    Quote
    That you may have a true faith in those things which God has revealed, it is necessary that you should believe in the Catholic Church, in which alone you can learn with certainty what God has revealed. For this reason, after you have been asked if you believe in God, you are also asked if you believe in the Catholic Church.

    Certainly those who do not believe in the Catholic Church cannot have divine faith in the mysteries which they believe, but only natural and human faith; a faith of their own fancy, founded on the light of their own judgment, subject to error, and not on the promises of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church alone possesses these promises, and on her testimony alone rests the foundation of Christian faith. As she possesses the divine promises for all days, even to the end of ages, there can be no reason to doubt whatever she proposes to our belief.

    Thank God for having given you the precious gift of faith, and having made you a child of the holy Catholic Church, which is the faithful repository of the truths of salvation, and which all Christians are obliged to acknowledge as the true Church. In saying, “I believe in the holy Catholic Church’ you united yourself inseparably to this holy mother; you believe, without hesitation, all that she proposes, as proposed to you by Jesus Christ himself, who is ever with her in her instructions. Reject, then, with horror, everything at variance with her teachings, and regard it as an error calculated to endanger your faith.

    However ignorant you may be, you have the true faith if you believe, without exception, all the holy Catholic Church believes and teaches; on the other hand, however learned you may be, you lose the gift and the virtue of faith if you reject any doctrine which she teaches; for her faith is your rule. “As there is but one faith,” says St. Paul, “to wish to divide it, is to destroy it.” Heretics not only differ from the Church in faith, but they also differ amongst themselves, a proof that they have not the true faith, which is one. The holy Catholic Church never has suffered, and never will suffer, a difference of faith in regard to any article. Her faith is the same in all times, in all places, and in all her true children. Thus her faith is one and the only true faith. You should be most desirous to preserve the faith in all its purity, since without it, it is impossible to do anything which merits Heaven. “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” Those who do not possess it may practice all the moral virtues, justice, sobriety, chastity, alms-deeds, prayers, mortification; and not only is this the case with heretics, but it is a truth which should be borne in mind, that these good actions, unless they have faith for their principle, will never merit Heaven for them. The law of Moses, all holy as it was, could save only those who observed it through faith.

    When, therefore, you observe that those who believe not in the Church, practice some good works, offer many prayers, and lead an austere life, do not believe that they are on this account in the way of salvation, unless they have true faith; you commit an ENORMOUS SIN if you believe that they can be saved outside of the Church; that they can have faith without believing in her, or that they can be saved without faith.


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #21 on: June 13, 2023, 10:03:17 PM »
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  • The Catholic Dogma by Fr. Muller

    CHAPTER V., Part II.



    http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/The_Catholic_Dogma/Chapter-V_Part-II.html



    Quote
    Let us see now what the Rev. A. Young says of the other class of inculpably ignorant Protestants.

    In his article "Have Protestants divine faith," published March 22, 1888, in the Buffalo Catholic Union and Times, the Rev. A. Young says:—

    “Protestants can have divine faith. That it is possible for some Protestants to have divine faith is a fact I am as certain of as I am that I have such faith myself. I was once a Protestant, and my faith was just as truly and theologically divine, as it is today. I never had human faith, and when I explain myself I honestly believe that a great number of Protestants, could they read my words, would say— ‘You have stated my case exactly.'

    "That we may not be misled by any fanciful ideas or notions about what is divine faith, I will give at once the definition of it from the mouth of one of the greatest doctors of the Church—St. Thomas. He says: 'Ipsum credere est actus intellectus assentientis veritati divinae ex imperio voluntatis a Deo motae per gratiam.' (22., q. ii. art. 9.) `To believe is an act of the intellect assenting to divine truth by command of the will moved by the grace of God.' That is an. exact definition of what my belief (faith) was as a Protestant, and in becoming a Catholic IT UNDERWENT NO CHANGE, and plainly could not undergo any."



    When St. Thomas says, "Ipsum, (i.e. Deum) credere, to believe God,” etc., he speaks of Catholics who have the true faith, as is evident from all that precedes, especially from q. i., art. 10., in which he says that it belongs especially to the Pope, whom Christ made the visible head of his Church, to see to the arrangement and publication of the symbol of faith.

    It is, therefore, to say the least, unwise for the Rev. A. Young to apply to himself and other material heretics what St. Thomas says only of the faith of Catholics; for he says expressly that those who have not the true faith cannot make an act of faith as it ought to be made, that is, in the manner determined by the true faith.

    And what St. Thomas means by "Ipsum credere, to believe God," he tells us in q. v., art. 3, in which he says: "The formal object of faith is the First Truth (that is, God himself) such as he is known from Holy Scripture and from the doctrine of the Church, which (doctrine) proceeds from the First Truth.

    Hence any one who does not adhere to the infallible and divine rule of faith—to the doctrine of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth as made known in the Holy Scripture, cannot have the habit of faith; but if he holds certain truths of faith, he holds them not by faith, but by some other reasons.

    But it is clear that he who adheres to the doctrine of the Church as to the infallible rule of belief, assents to all that the Church teaches; he, however, who chooses to believe some of those truths which the Church teaches, and to reject others, instead of adhering to the doctrine of the Church as the infallible rule of faith, adheres only to his own private will or judgment.



    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #22 on: June 13, 2023, 10:38:06 PM »
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  • The Spanish Origin of International Law: Francisco de Vitoria and his law of nations by James Brown Scott

    Appendix A

    Page XXVIII


    Francisco de Vitoria




    Quote
    9. I say accordingly on this point that negligence with regard to the subject-matter is requisite for ignorance, even though it be vincible, to be imputed as, and to be, a sin, as, for example, that the man refused to hear or did not believe what he did hear; and on the other hand I say that for invincible ignorance it is enough that the man bestowed human diligence in trying to learn, even if in other respects he is in mortal sin. And so on this point our judgement is the same concerning one in sin and one in grace, both now and immediately after Christ's coming or after His passion. Adrian could not deny that after our Lord's passion the Jєωs in India or in Spain were invincibly ignorant of His passion, however much they were in mortal sin; nay, he himself has expressly conceded this in his first quaestio, fourth point, on the topic de observantialegalium. And it is certain that the Jєωs who were away from Judaea, whether they were in sin or not, had invincible ignorance about baptism and about the faith of Christ. Just as there could at that time be a case of invincible ignorance on this matter, so there may also be nowadays among those who have not had baptism declared to them.

    But the mistake which the doctors in question make is in thinking that when we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the Christian faith it follows at once that a person can be saved without baptism or the Christian faith, which, however, does not follow.

    For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but not for the sin of unbelief, as St. Thomas (Secunda Secundae, as above) says, namely, that if they do what in them lies, accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God's providence and He will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ, but it does not therefore follow that if their life be bad, ignorance or unbelief in baptism and the Christian faith may be imputed to them as a sin.


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #23 on: June 13, 2023, 10:47:41 PM »
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  • 1) You can't be in formal submission to something that doesn't exist.  During an interregnum, Catholics who await the election of the new Pope by the Cardinals are in potential submission to the Pope, but not formal submission.  2) It depends on why the person is mistaken.  Is it because the person was a missionary in America in the 18th century, and didn't know that the former Pope died and a new one had been elected (as in the case of Juniper Serra), or is it because the person rejects the Pope that was elected by the Cardinals and accepted by the entire teaching Church, and instead accepts another, or no one, as the legitimate Pope?  In the latter case, the "mistake" would not constitute formal or potential submission to the Holy Father, nor would it excuse the person from his failure to do what is absolutely necessary for salvation.

    As Elwin wrote, the number of errors and stupidities in this post makes it impossible to even begin to unravel.  You clearly don't even know what the terms potential and formal even mean.

    Offline SPelli

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #24 on: June 13, 2023, 10:52:48 PM »
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  • As Elwin wrote, the number of errors and stupidities in this post makes it impossible to even begin to unravel.  You clearly don't even know what the terms potential and formal even mean.

    If there are errors, point them out, and I do indeed know what the terms formal and potency mean.   

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #25 on: June 13, 2023, 10:54:38 PM »
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  • The Church doesn't compel us to condemn as damned those who died in objective schism.  As you wrote above: "The Church has never named a person that was damned.  This is up to God."  If the Church hasn't condemned anyone who died in schism, it doesn't command the faithful to do so.

    It's not based on emotion and sentimentality; it is based on Catholic dogma and sound theology.  Those who are baptized before the age of reason, obtain supernatural faith, hope and charity.  If, after attaining the age of reason, they wer not guilty of formal heresy or schism, and if they never committed a mortal sin, or had perfect contrition for the one's they had committed, and hence died in the state of grace, they would be saved.  To deny that, would necessarily entail denying several dogmas.

    But what Catholics must affirm is that material schism, as such, will not prevent a person from being saved.

    :facepalm:  It just keeps getting better.

    Nobody's "condemning" anyone.  Church not only presumes, but commands that we presume that those who die in objective schism are lost.  That is demonstrated not only by the practice of the Church, but also by papal teaching.

    Name those "several dogmas" that are denied as you claim.  Go ahead.  You make things up as you go along because they sound good to you.  When infants are baptized, they received infused supernatural faith and charity, but these must be affirmed by actual acts of faith, with the proper supernatural motive of faith, once they reach the age of reason.  If someone were baptized as an infant but then for some reason was raised as an atheist, if these infused supernatural virtues are not confirmed by actual acts of faith, they are lost.  It is only for those who are baptized without having attained the use of reason that a merely-infused supernatural virtue of faith is possible.  All those having attained the use of reason are required to have explicit belief.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    « Reply #26 on: June 13, 2023, 10:55:21 PM »
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  • If there are errors, point them out, and I do indeed know what the terms formal and potency mean. 

    It's clear form how you used the terms that you do not know what they mean.