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Author Topic: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent  (Read 11485 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2023, 01:27:58 PM »
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  • Thanks for finding the quotes, trad123.  Here, to put them together more concisely:
    Quote
    (S)o, if [men] were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just.

    (I)n those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, There is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, harmless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven.

    MAJOR:  Initial Justification (vs. restored justification as in Confession) requires rebirth.
    MINOR:  Rebirth removes all condemnation so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven.
    CONCLUSION:  Initial justification puts men into a state where nothing whatever remains that could retard (slow down) their entrance into Heaven.

    Both the MAJOR and MINOR are taught by Trent, as in the passages above (provided by trad123).

    There's no way around this.  If BoD can provide this initial justification, it must also remove any temporal punishment due to sin (as that would retard their entrance into heaven).

    This is further confirmed by the previously-cited passage from Innocent III where he asserts that those who are justified by faith in the Sacrament would enter heaven "without delay".

    Offline SPelli

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    Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
    « Reply #61 on: June 14, 2023, 02:02:08 PM »
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  • Even if one believes in baptism of desire / blood, the grace that is merited through Christ's Passion by which both sacramental baptism and baptism of blood / desire derive their efficacy would necessarily have to be one and the same grace.

    But the effects are not the same.  The effects of the sacrament of baptism are greater than the effects of baptism of desire.  The effects of the latter are the infusion of grace, and hence the remission of sin, and remission of eternal punishment due to sin. The effects of the sacrament of baptism are the infusion of grace, remission of sin, the imprinting of the character, and the remission of all punishment (temporal and eternal) due to sin. St. Thomas describes the difference between the effects as follows:


    Quote
    Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 2; III:68:2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism."

    The effects of baptism of desire suffice for salvation, which is why the Church delays baptizing adults, but not children, as the Catechism of Trent teaches. St. Thomas teaches the same:


    Quote
    Article 3. Whether Baptism should be deferred?
     
    I answer that, In this matter we must make a distinction and see whether those who are to be baptized are children or adults. For if they be children, Baptism should not be deferred. First, because in them we do not look for better instruction or fuller conversion. Secondly, because of the danger of death, for no other remedy is available for them besides the sacrament of Baptism.
     
    On the other hand, adults have a remedy in the mere desire for Baptism, as stated above (Article 2). And therefore Baptism should not be conferred on adults as soon as they are converted, but it should be deferred until some fixed time. First, as a safeguard to the Church, lest she be deceived through baptizing those who come to her under false pretenses, according to 1 John 4:1: "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, if they be of God." And those who approach Baptism are put to this test, when their faith and morals are subjected to proof for a space of time. Secondly, this is needful as being useful for those who are baptized; for they require a certain space of time in order to be fully instructed in the faith, and to be drilled in those things that pertain to the Christian mode of life. Thirdly, a certain reverence for the sacrament demands a delay whereby men are admitted to Baptism at the principal festivities, viz. of Easter and Pentecost, the result being that they receive the sacrament with greater devotion.
     
    There are, however, two reasons for forgoing this delay. First, when those who are to be baptized appear to be perfectly instructed in the faith and ready for Baptism; thus, Philip baptized the Eunuch at once (Acts 8); and Peter, Cornelius and those who were with him (Acts 10). Secondly, by reason of sickness or some kind of danger of death. Wherefore Pope Leo says (Epist. xvi): "Those who are threatened by death, sickness, siege, persecution, or shipwreck, should be baptized at any time." Yet if a man is forestalled by death, so as to have no time to receive the sacrament, while he awaits the season appointed by the Church, he is saved, yet "so as by fire," as stated above (Article 2, Reply to Objection 2). [because his temporal punishment has not been remitted]  Nevertheless he sins if he defer being baptized beyond the time appointed by the Church, except this be for an unavoidable cause and with the permission of the authorities of the Church. But even this sin, with his other sins, can be washed away by his subsequent contrition, which takes the place of Baptism, as stated above (III:66:11). SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Those who receive Baptism (Tertia Pars, Q. 68) (newadvent.org)

    The effects of BOD suffice for salvation, but they do not suffice for the remission of temporal sin.  The sacrament of baptism, on the other hand, does have the effect of remitting temporal punishment.  



     


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
    « Reply #62 on: June 14, 2023, 02:25:13 PM »
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  • But the effects are not the same.  The effects of the sacrament of baptism are greater than the effects of baptism of desire.  The effects of the latter are the infusion of grace, and hence the remission of sin, and remission of eternal punishment due to sin. The effects of the sacrament of baptism are the infusion of grace, remission of sin, the imprinting of the character, and the remission of all punishment (temporal and eternal) due to sin. St. Thomas describes the difference between the effects as follows:


    The effects of baptism of desire suffice for salvation, which is why the Church delays baptizing adults, but not children, as the Catechism of Trent teaches. St. Thomas teaches the same:


    The effects of BOD suffice for salvation, but they do not suffice for the remission of temporal sin.  The sacrament of baptism, on the other hand, does have the effect of remitting temporal punishment. 



     
    If so-called baptism of desire doesn't produce the effects of baptism then it isn't baptism.

     Trent canon 5 on the sacrament of baptism:

    "If anyone saith that baptism is free, that is not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema."

    Always nice to mention that canon 2 defines that real and natural water is necessary for the same baptism that is necessary for salvation.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
    « Reply #63 on: June 14, 2023, 02:29:48 PM »
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  • The effects of baptism of desire suffice for salvation, which is why the Church delays baptizing adults, but not children, as the Catechism of Trent teaches. St. Thomas teaches the same:

    [ . . . ]

    Yet if a man is forestalled by death, so as to have no time to receive the sacrament, while he awaits the season appointed by the Church, he is saved, yet "so as by fire," as stated above (Article 2, Reply to Objection 2).



    Pope St. Leo

    Letter 16


    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3604016.htm


    Quote
    VI. In cases of urgency other times are allowable for baptism.


    Wherefore, as it is quite clear that these two seasons of which we have been speaking are the rightful ones for baptizing the chosen in Church, we admonish you, beloved, not to add other days to this observance. Because, although there are other festivals also to which much reverence is due in God's honour, yet we must rationally guard this principal and greatest sacrament as a deep mystery and not part of the ordinary routine : not, however, prohibiting the licence to succour those who are in danger by administering baptism to them at any time.


    For while we put off the vows of those who are not pressed by ill health and live in peaceful security to those two closely connected and cognate festivals, we do not at any time refuse this which is the only safeguard of true salvation to any one in peril of death, in the crisis of a siege, in the distress of persecution, in the terror of shipwreck.




    The Christian Faith in the Doctrinal Docuмents of the Catholic Church, published in 1982


    Pope Siricius

    Letter to Himerius, Bishop of Tarragona, 385


    https://archive.org/details/christianfaithin0000unse_d3d2/page/386/mode/2up


    Page 387:



    Quote
    As we maintain that the observance of the holy Paschal time should in no way be relaxed, in the same way we desire that infants who, on account of their age, cannot yet speak, or those who, in any necessity, are in want of the water of holy baptism, be succoured with all possible speed, for fear that, if anyone who leaves this world should be deprived of the life of the Kingdom for having been refused the source of salvation which he desired, this may lead to the ruin of our souls. If anyone threatened with shipwreck, or the attack of enemies, or the uncertainties of a siege, or anyone put in a hopeless condition due to some bodily sickness, asks for what in his faith is his only help, let him receive at the very moment of his request the reward of the regeneration he begs for. Enough of the past mistakes! From now on, let all the priests observe the aforesaid rule if they do not want to be separated from the solid apostolic rock on which Christ has built His universal Church.



    St. Gregory nαzιanzen

    Oration 40

    The Oration on Holy Baptism.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310240.htm




    Quote
    XXIII.


    [ . . . ]


    If you judge the murderously disposed man by his will alone, apart from the act of murder, then you may reckon as baptized him who desired baptism apart from the reception of baptism. But if you cannot do the one how can you do the other? I cannot see it. Or, if you like, we will put it thus:— If desire in your opinion has equal power with actual baptism, then judge in the same way in regard to glory, and you may be content with longing for it, as if that were itself glory. And what harm is done you by your not attaining the actual glory, as long as you have the desire for it?

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
    « Reply #64 on: June 14, 2023, 02:45:06 PM »
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  • Saint Augustine Against Julian

    The Fathers of The Church, A New Translation, Volume 35

    Introduction

    https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur013910mbp/page/n281


    Page XI:



    Quote
    St. Augustine wrote this work in the closing years of a life busied with three great controversies--Manichaeism, Donatism, Pelagianism, the last ending with the Contra Julianum and the Opus imperfectum contra Julianum.




    Page 258:


    Quote
    Chapter 4

     [ . . . ]
     
    Of the number of the elect and predestined, even those who have led the very worst kind of life are led to repentance through the goodness of God, through whose patience they were not taken from this life in the commission of crimes; in order to show them and their co-heirs the depth of evil from which the grace of God delivers man. Not one of. them perishes, regardless of his age at death; never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the Mediator. Because of these men, our Lord says: 'This is the will of him who sent me, the Father, that I should lose nothing of what he has given me.'11 The other mortals, not of this number, who are of the same mass as these, but have been made vessels of wrath, are born for their advantage. God creates none of them rashly or fortuitously, and He also knows what good may be made from them, since He works good in the very gift of human nature in them, and through them He adorns the order of the present world. He leads none of them to the wholesome and spiritual repentance by which a man in Christ is reconciled to God, whether His patience in their regard be more generous or not unequal. Therefore, though all men, of the same mass of perdition and condemnation, unrepentant according to the hardness of their heart, treasure up wrath to themselves on the day of wrath when each will be repaid according to his works, God through His merciful goodness leads some of them to repentance, and according to his judgment does not lead others. Our Lord says He has the power to lead and draw men: 'No men can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him.'12
     
    [ . . . ]
     
    11 John 6.59.
    12 John 6.44.






    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
    « Reply #65 on: June 14, 2023, 02:47:55 PM »
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  • https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/st-alphonsus-contradicts-trent/msg888498/#msg888498



    Quote
    never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the Mediator.



    Likewise, I dare say, never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without embracing the Catholic faith.

    We either believe in the Athanasian Creed, or we don't, there is no inbetween.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
    « Reply #66 on: June 14, 2023, 03:44:40 PM »
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  • The effects of BOD suffice for salvation, but they do not suffice for the remission of temporal sin.  The sacrament of baptism, on the other hand, does have the effect of remitting temporal punishment. 

    Blah blah blah.  You just keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again as if that makes it true.

    Refute the post above where the Council of Trent makes it clear that there's no such thing as initial justification without the complete remission of the temporal punishment due to sin ... despite your butchered term "temporal sin".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
    « Reply #67 on: June 14, 2023, 03:44:57 PM »
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  • Thanks for finding the quotes, trad123.  Here, to put them together more concisely:
    MAJOR:  Initial Justification (vs. restored justification as in Confession) requires rebirth.
    MINOR:  Rebirth removes all condemnation so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven.
    CONCLUSION:  Initial justification puts men into a state where nothing whatever remains that could retard (slow down) their entrance into Heaven.

    Both the MAJOR and MINOR are taught by Trent, as in the passages above (provided by trad123).

    There's no way around this.  If BoD can provide this initial justification, it must also remove any temporal punishment due to sin (as that would retard their entrance into heaven).

    This is further confirmed by the previously-cited passage from Innocent III where he asserts that those who are justified by faith in the Sacrament would enter heaven "without delay".