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Author Topic: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus  (Read 7947 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2023, 02:05:50 PM »
Quote from: SPelli on June 13, 2023, 01:53:00 PM
Well, salvation depends on who the Pope is, since it is a defined dogma that submission to the Roman Pontiff is absolutely necessary for salvation.  During the Great Western Schism, entire countries rejected the true Pope, and therefore were not in submission to the Roman Pontiff, which is absolutely necessary for salvation.

:facepalm: ... see my response above.
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Offline SPelli

Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2023, 02:33:29 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 13, 2023, 02:05:07 PM
:facepalm:

Submission to the Holy Father is formally present even if 1) the See is vacant, say, during an interregnum, 2) you're mistaken about which man is actually the Pope at any given time.

1) You can't be in formal submission to something that doesn't exist.  During an interregnum, Catholics who await the election of the new Pope by the Cardinals are in potential submission to the Pope, but not formal submission.  2) It depends on why the person is mistaken.  Is it because the person was a missionary in America in the 18th century, and didn't know that the former Pope died and a new one had been elected (as in the case of Juniper Serra), or is it because the person rejects the Pope that was elected by the Cardinals and accepted by the entire teaching Church, and instead accepts another, or no one, as the legitimate Pope?  In the latter case, the "mistake" would not constitute formal or potential submission to the Holy Father, nor would it excuse the person from his failure to do what is absolutely necessary for salvation.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2023, 02:48:50 PM »

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I agree with you.  The point I was getting at is, if individuals can be objectively schism, yet subjectively innocent due to their knowledge and circuŠ¼stances,
1.  We don't know that they can.  No person in material schism has ever come back from the dead to prove they were saved.

2.  Church teaching compels us to condemn those who are objectively schismatic, even if materially.
3.  The number of those in material error (vs formal error) is probably very small.


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and therefore able to obtain salvation in their current state,
This is just a theory, based on human emotion and sentimentality.  No one has to believe that materially schismatic people can be saved; some just some like to think it's possible.  But, the dogma of EENS is pretty hardline and tells us, no, it can't happen (in a general sense).



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it would follow that a person can be visibly and objectively separated from the Church, yet at the same time subjectively and interiorly joined to the Church to the extent necessary to attain salvation.
EENS says this isn't possible, in a general sense.



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But that is what Ladislaus seems to reject as "subjectivised salvation." 
I agree with him.
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Offline SPelli

Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2023, 02:59:33 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 13, 2023, 02:48:50 PM
1.  We don't know that they can.  No person in material schism has ever come back from the dead to prove they were saved.

2.  Church teaching compels us to condemn those who are objectively schismatic, even if materially.

The Church doesn't compel us to condemn as damned those who died in objective schism.  As you wrote above: "The Church has never named a person that was damned.  This is up to God."  If the Church hasn't condemned anyone who died in schism, it doesn't command the faithful to do so.



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This is just a theory, based on human emotion and sentimentality. 
 

It's not based on emotion and sentimentality; it is based on Catholic dogma and sound theology.  Those who are baptized before the age of reason, obtain supernatural faith, hope and charity.  If, after attaining the age of reason, they wer not guilty of formal heresy or schism, and if they never committed a mortal sin, or had perfect contrition for the one's they had committed, and hence died in the state of grace, they would be saved.  To deny that, would necessarily entail denying several dogmas.



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No one has to believe that materially schismatic people can be saved; some just some like to think it's possible.  


But what Catholics must affirm is that material schism, as such, will not prevent a person from being saved.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2023, 04:01:44 PM »

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The Church doesn't compel us to condemn as damned those who died in objective schism.  As you wrote above: "The Church has never named a person that was damned.  This is up to God."  If the Church hasn't condemned anyone who died in schism, it doesn't command the faithful to do so.
Yes, She does, because that's what EENS means.  We MUST uphold the doctrine that all those who die outside of the Church cannot be saved.  This is a general principle.


But the Church does not say person A is condemned (specifically).  But She does say they cannot be saved, generally speaking.  These 2 principles are not a contradiction because salvation is a mystery.



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But what Catholics must affirm is that material schism, as such, will not prevent a person from being saved.
Maybe it won't prevent salvation, maybe it will.  The dogma of EENS skews the answer to they will not be saved, but we don't know.


There's no dogma that says I must believe those in material heresy can be saved.  Ridiculous.


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If, after attaining the age of reason, they were not guilty of formal heresy or schism, and if they never committed a mortal sin, or had perfect contrition for the one's they had committed, and hence died in the state of grace, they would be saved. 
If they weren't guilty of heresy/schism then they are catholic and not schismatic.  But only God knows this.  If they were "visibly" attached to a schismatic/heretical church (and not reconciled to the Catholic Faith) then we must proclaim their salvation is in doubt.  Only God knows.
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