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Author Topic: Father Kramer to the Feeneyites  (Read 25703 times)

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Offline Cantarella

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Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2014, 10:03:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Previously posted in regard to this topic of discussion...




    Nobody is arguing that BOB/BOD (for catechumens / martyrs ONLY) teachings have been allowed by the Church. That is not what the argument is about. The problem is the exploitation of the original teaching. It is that BOD is the "loophole" that the liberal modernists have used in order to undermine the dogma of EENS and the exclusivity of the Catholic Church as only means of human salvation. Catholics before were not even concerned about the concept of BOD / BOB for catechumens and martyrs only because they were harmless theories.

    But now please ask if any BOD adherent actually limits it to a CATHECHUMEN ONLY. Guarantee the answer is NO.  This is because what they really care about is having it possible somehow for non-Catholics to achieve salvation.

    BOD-> Invincible Ignorance -> Universal Salvation -> Indifferentism

    Again, we are not discussing BOD / BOB as it was speculated / taught in the past, but what it means today, that anyone outside the Church can be saved through last minute BOD, like if there was a shortcut to the Church Triumphant without actually being part of the Church Militant.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Nishant

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #91 on: June 01, 2014, 11:05:16 AM »
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  • Feeneyism is another of those modern errors that just refuses to die, even though it has been so often definitively condemned by Popes, Catechisms, Canon Law, theologians, Saints, Doctors, the ordinary and universal Magisterium and finally the Extraordinary Magisterium itself.

    The eminent theologian Fr. Marin Sola informs us, “From time to time certain heretics have affirmed that no adult can be saved without receiving baptism itself before he dies, however much he would burn with desire for it, and that it would do him no good unless he were washed with water. Baius (in a proposition condemned by Pope V) also taught that charity was not always joined to the remission of sins.” He goes on, “Against the second part (baptism of blood) there are hardly any adversaries, save for a few theologians who disagree over the manner in which martyrdom achieves its effect.”

    1. When Peter Abelard (who did not dare deny baptism of blood, but questioned baptism of desire), he was opposed by St. Bernard and St. Bonaventure. Feeneyites side with a known heretic, and oppose these Doctors. The Doctors of the Church are entirely unanimous after the Middle Ages, in teaching the doctrine, and stating it cannot be denied that souls are saved by baptism of desire. Pius IX binds Catholics to obey the common and constant teaching of theologians, since this is guaranteed to be immune from error by the ordinary and universal teaching authority of the whole Church, and as Fr. Cekada and others have shown, the teaching on Baptism of desire and blood is binding on all Catholics under pain of objective mortal sin.

    2. Pope Innocent II and III teach Baptism of Desire in Encyclical letters, see Denzinger 388 and 413. After this point, the question is clearly settled, as teh unanimous consensus of theological teaching in all the Catholic schools shows. Continuing with the Ordinary Magisterium, Pope Pius IX makes reference to it in several places and teaches it expressly in QCM, where he clearly says the invincibly ignorant who strive to fulfil the natural law and are ready to obey God will be saved by the efficacious virtue of divine light, because God will not allow anyone not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Baptism of water is not a virtue, and therefore this doesn't refer to it. Pius XII teaches it in MCC and in another authoritative statement ((AAS: XLIII (1951) p. 84)) affirms that an act of love of God suffices for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace.

    3. Every single Catechism on the subject (Roman Catechism of Trent, Douay Catechism, Baltimore Catechism, Catechism of St. Pius X) that treats the subject teach it as certain that we can be saved by baptism of desire. Example, St. Pius X's Catechism,

    Quote
    17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.


    4. Even if it were not taught by the Extraordinary Magisterium that baptism is necessary in fact or in desire, the simple reality that it is so universally taught by the whole Church teaching for such a length of time would prove it belongs to the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

    But there are two proofs from Trent. The first is that voto never refers to a mere disposition, but always to desire as causing the sacramental effect. In exactly, the same way, Trent says penance and the Eucharist can be received in voto.

    But there is another proof, it is that Trent says that penance is necessary for salvation, in those who have fallen after baptism, just as baptism itself is necessary, in those who have not been regenerated.

    But everyone knows, and most Feeneyites conceded, that penance is necessary in fact or in desire. Therefore, from this is it follows that baptism too is necessary in fact or in desire.  

    The mind of the Tridentine Fathers is confirmed in the Roman Catechism, and the mind of the Church later clearly seen in Her own canons, "“Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all" (Can 737)

    5. As for sedevacantist Feeneyites, to be consistent with your principles, that Popes can never authoritatively promulgate heresy, mustn't you claim at least that St. Pius X, Benedict XV and indeed all subsequent Popes after this law were never Popes? Or, if you admit the authority of the Roman Catechism, as you must, maybe it's all Popes since St. Pius V?

    The Roman Catechism clearly says the same danger present for infants - the danger of death - is not present for adults, because when an accident unforeseen to the catechumen makes it impossible to receive water baptism, desire avails him to grace and justice, meaning he will be saved when he died. If the Catechism wanted to teach Feeneyism, it would say, these persons are damned, since it was impossible for them to be washed in the salutary waters of the sacrament.

    Feeneyites simply don't understand the rule of Catholic Faith.


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #92 on: June 01, 2014, 11:20:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Previously posted in regard to this topic of discussion...




    Nobody is arguing that BOB/BOD (for catechumens / martyrs ONLY) teachings have been allowed by the Church. That is not what the argument is about. The problem is the exploitation of the original teaching. It is that BOD is the "loophole" that the liberal modernists have used in order to undermine the dogma of EENS and the exclusivity of the Catholic Church as only means of human salvation. Catholics before were not even concerned about the concept of BOD / BOB for catechumens and martyrs only because they were harmless theories.

    But now please ask if any BOD adherent actually limits it to a CATHECHUMEN ONLY. Guarantee the answer is NO.  This is because what they really care about is having it possible somehow for non-Catholics to achieve salvation.

    BOD-> Invincible Ignorance -> Universal Salvation -> Indifferentism

    Again, we are not discussing BOD / BOB as it was speculated / taught in the past, but what it means today, that anyone outside the Church can be saved through last minute BOD, like if there was a shortcut to the Church Triumphant without actually being part of the Church Militant.


    I'm not arguing about anything here, but merely posted a Scripture annotation for John 3:5 because it applies to representations made to the Council of Trent Decrees.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Ambrose

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #93 on: June 01, 2014, 12:21:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: J.Paul
    In all of this, it is becoming so difficult to find the doctrine of the fewness of the saved.  




    Quote
    Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    ( Unless a man be born again: By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19. )

     Amen, amen I say to you: He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same is a thief and a robber.


    Who is it that will not hear Christ?


    Baptism of Desire does not conflict with the teaching that few are saved.


    Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.





    And Jesus Christ established a Church, which authoritatively interpreted John 3:5 to mean Baptism or the Desire for it.

    You reject Catholic teaching at your own peril.


    You who add to the Word  of Christ or stray from it, do so at your own peril.

    You who follow the CCC, and who can neither accept the Divine law of the Church's dogmas nor that which comes from the mouth of the God/man.


    This has nothing to do with the CCC.  Are you aware that Baptism of Desire has been taught over and over, century after century?

    Do you believe in the private interpretation of scripture as other Feeneyites appear to do, or is it for the Church to interpret the words of Sacred Scripture?  

    Is this passage from scripture also to be taken literally, as the words state?:

    Quote
    8 *And if thy hand or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.

    9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. (St. Matthew 18: 8-9)



    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #94 on: June 01, 2014, 12:26:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Previously posted in regard to this topic of discussion...




    Nobody is arguing that BOB/BOD (for catechumens / martyrs ONLY) teachings have been allowed by the Church. That is not what the argument is about. The problem is the exploitation of the original teaching. It is that BOD is the "loophole" that the liberal modernists have used in order to undermine the dogma of EENS and the exclusivity of the Catholic Church as only means of human salvation. Catholics before were not even concerned about the concept of BOD / BOB for catechumens and martyrs only because they were harmless theories.

    But now please ask if any BOD adherent actually limits it to a CATHECHUMEN ONLY. Guarantee the answer is NO.  This is because what they really care about is having it possible somehow for non-Catholics to achieve salvation.

    BOD-> Invincible Ignorance -> Universal Salvation -> Indifferentism

    Again, we are not discussing BOD / BOB as it was speculated / taught in the past, but what it means today, that anyone outside the Church can be saved through last minute BOD, like if there was a shortcut to the Church Triumphant without actually being part of the Church Militant.


    I'm not arguing about anything here, but merely posted a Scripture annotation for John 3:5 because it applies to representations made to the Council of Trent Decrees.


    You are correct for posting this, because all Catholics who understood theology prior to this crisis understood and took for granted the fact that the Council of Trent taught Baptism of Desire.  It is for this reason that it is cited so often among the theologians as teaching BoD.

    Those on here who pretend that Trent taught their heretical view of denying Baptism of Desire have not a single source to support them.  All they have is a twisting of Trent and other papal teaching, to mean what it does not mean.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline JPaul

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #95 on: June 01, 2014, 02:21:38 PM »
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  • Ambrose,
    Quote
    Is this passage from scripture also to be taken literally, as the words state?:


    Quote:
    8 *And if thy hand or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.

     9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. (St. Matthew 18: 8-9)
     


    If any of the said members were to pose the loss of your salvation and eternal damnation....you bet!

    This is an example of the modern mind's inability to accept the Gospel of our Lord as it is revealed, believing that those things which scandalize their sensibilities must have some meaning other than what they say.

    Offline Jehanne

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #96 on: June 01, 2014, 02:43:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: GJC
    Quote
    1070 70. Man existing in the state of mortal sin, or under the penalty of eternal damnation can have true charity; and even perfect charity can exist along with the guilt of eternal damnation.


    What's there to prove?  Saint Thomas taught:

    Quote
    It is impossible for venial sin to be in anyone with original sin alone, and without mortal sin. The reason for this is because before a man comes to the age of discretion, the lack of years hinders the use of reason and excuses him from mortal sin, wherefore, much more does it excuse him from venial sin, if he does anything which is such generically. But when he begins to have the use of reason, he is not entirely excused from the guilt of venial or mortal sin.  Now the first thing that occurs to a man to think about then, is to deliberate about himself. And if he then direct himself to the due end, he will, by means of grace, receive the remission of original sin: whereas if he does not then direct himself to the due end, and as far as he is capable of discretion at that particular age, he will sin mortally, for through not doing that which is in his power to do. Accordingly thenceforward there cannot be venial sin in him without mortal, until afterwards all sin shall have been remitted to him through grace. (ST Ia IIae, q.89, a.6)


    Ergo, an act of charity towards the Triune God can remit original sin and mortal sin.

    Offline JPaul

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #97 on: June 01, 2014, 02:57:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    Those on here who pretend that Trent taught their heretical view of denying Baptism of Desire have not a single source to support them.  All they have is a twisting of Trent and other papal teaching, to mean what it does not mean.
     


    Who will dignify this with an answer?


    Offline Jehanne

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #98 on: June 01, 2014, 04:17:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: GJC
    Do you see?


    Sure, Saint Pius V is condemning the idea that sanctifying grace cannot precede sacramental Baptism.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #99 on: June 01, 2014, 06:34:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Ergo, an act of charity towards the Triune God can remit original sin and mortal sin.


    So you continue your HERETICAL denial of the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #100 on: June 01, 2014, 06:36:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Feeneyism is another of those modern errors that just refuses to die,


    Perhaps that's because it's not an error but the truth, and the truth won't die.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #101 on: June 01, 2014, 06:58:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote
    Those on here who pretend that Trent taught their heretical view of denying Baptism of Desire have not a single source to support them.  All they have is a twisting of Trent and other papal teaching, to mean what it does not mean.
     


    Who will dignify this with an answer?


    Not a single one of my arguments regarding the interpretation of Trent has ever been addressed.  Consequently, they stand.

    Offline JoeZ

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #102 on: June 01, 2014, 07:19:34 PM »
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  • Please allow me to try again here.

    Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: GJC
    Do you see?


    Sure, Saint Pius V is condemning the idea that sanctifying grace cannot precede sacramental Baptism.


    Thank you, it would seem that this would end the debate. Sadly it does not.


    The Errors of du Bay(in red) are condemned by pope St. Pius V. These errors are listed in the Denzinger sources of catholic dogma. The numbers correspond to the previous mentioned work. The errors are listed as du Bay's propositions and are to be understood as condemned.

     Therefore: When du Bay says (1070) "Man existing in the state of mortal sin, or under the penalty of eternal damnation can have true charity; and even perfect charity can exist along with the guilt of eternal damnation.", we must understand that is not true.We must hold that man in the state of mortal sin or under penalty of eternal damnation (which includes original sin) cannot have true charity. The second thought we must hold here is perfect charity cannot exist along with the guilt of eternal damnation.

    When du Bay says (1031) "Perfect and sincere charity, which is from a "pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned" [1 Tim. 1:5], can be in catechumens as well as in penitents without the remission of sins.", we must believe that perfect and sincere charity, which is from a pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned cannot be in catechumens or penitents without the remission of sins.

    When du Bay says (1043) "In persons who are penitent before the sacrament of absolution, and in catechumens before baptism, there is true justification, yet separated from the remission of sin.", we must believe that in persons who are penitent before the sacrament of absolution, or in catechumens before baptism, there is not true justification that is separate from the remission of sin.

    When du Bay says (1033)" A catechumen lives justly and rightly and holily, and observes the commandments of God, and fulfills the law through charity, which is only received in the laver of baptism, before the remission of sins has been obtained." , we must believe that a catechumen does not live justly,rightly, and holily, and does not observe the commandments of God, and does not fulfill the law through charity before the remission of sins has been obtained because this can only occur through "the laver of baptism", hence the interjection.


    Thank you for your time.
    God bless,
    JoeZ
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline Ambrose

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #103 on: June 01, 2014, 07:44:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote
    Those on here who pretend that Trent taught their heretical view of denying Baptism of Desire have not a single source to support them.  All they have is a twisting of Trent and other papal teaching, to mean what it does not mean.
     


    Who will dignify this with an answer?


    Not a single one of my arguments regarding the interpretation of Trent has ever been addressed.  Consequently, they stand.


    They only stand in your own mind.  Your arguments are not convincing any of us to deny our Catholic Faith.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    Father Kramer to the Feeneyites
    « Reply #104 on: June 01, 2014, 07:51:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Nishant
    Feeneyism is another of those modern errors that just refuses to die,


    Perhaps that's because it's not an error but the truth, and the truth won't die.


    Luther's errors also linger on almost 500 years later.  I suspect, from all appearances, that some on here will perpetuate this heresy, even after a Pope comes again and corrects all of you.

    Some of you are so convinced of your heresy, that it makes me wonder if you will be excommunicated rather than recant, and accept Catholic teaching on Baptism of Desire.

    You are not allowed to reject even one point of the Catholic Faith.  The entire Faith must be believed, and not one point rejected.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic