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Author Topic: Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?  (Read 11374 times)

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Offline Mithrandylan

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Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2014, 08:48:50 AM »
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  • http://www.scribd.com/doc/211357956/Sources-of-Baptism-of-Blood-Baptism-of-Desire

    There's a link with hundreds of sources throughout the entire history of the Church, from the beginning until modern day, teaching BOD.  And here is an excerpt:

    St. Bernard of Clairveaux, Doctor of the Church, writing to St. Hugo: (bears mentioning that St. Hugo did not rebuke St. Bernard for his "liberal opinion," [some may even say heresy as he addresses BOD proper, rather than BOB] but rather in turn taught the same thing.)

    Quote from: St. Bernard of Clairveaux
    [He begins by quoting Ss. Augustine & Cyprian] ...Notice also that, when the Savior said “whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,” He cautiously and alertly did not repeat the phrase “who was not baptized,” but only “whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mk. 16:16).  This intimated that sometimes faith alone would suffice for salvation, and that without it, nothing would be sufficient.   For this reason, even if it is granted that martyrdom can take the place of baptism, it is clearly not the penalty which does this, but faith itself. For without faith what is martyrdom, if not a penalty? It is faith’s doing that martyrdom can without any doubt be considered the equivalent of baptism. Would not faith be very sickly and weak in itself, if what it can give to another, it cannot obtain by itself?  To be sure, to pour out one’s blood for Christ is an indubitable proof of great faith but to men, not to God. But what if God, who needs to perform no experiments to test for what He wants, saw great faith in the heart of someone dying in peace, not put to the question by martyrdom, but suitable for martyrdom nevertheless? If he remembers that he has not yet received the sacrament and sorrowfully and repentantly asks for it with all his heart, but cannot receive it because his death comes too quickly, will God damn his faithful one? Will He damn, I ask, a person who is even prepared to die for Him? Paul says: “No one can say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Ghost” (I Cor. 12:3).  Will we say that such a one, who at the moment of death not only invokes the Lord Jesus, but asks for the sacrament with his every longing, either does not speak in the Holy Ghost, so that the Apostle was mistaken, or is damned even though he has the Holy Ghost? He has the Savior dwelling in his heart by faith (Eph 3:17) and in his mouth by confession (Rom 10:10); will he then be damned with the Savior? Certainly if martyrdom obtains its prerogative only by the merit of faith, so that it is safely and singularly accepted in the place of baptism, I do not see why faith itself cannot with equal cause and without martyrdom be just as great in God’s eyes, who knows of it without the proof of martyrdom. I would say it can be just as great as far as obtaining salvation goes, but it is not as great in regard to the accuмulation of merit, in which martyrdom surely surpasses it.  We read: “Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer” (I Jn. 3:15); and again, “Whoever looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Mt. 5:28).  How could it be more evident that the wish is considered the equivalent of the deed, when necessity excludes the deed? That is, unless one thinks that God, who is love, would impute us the evil deeds of the will and not the good, and that the merciful and compassionate Lord is more ready to punish than to reward. Suppose someone who is at the point of death happens to remember that he is bound by a debt to another. If he lacks the means to pay it, he is still believed to obtain pardon solely by repentance and contrition of heart, and so he is not damned on account of it. In the same way, faith alone and turning the mind to God, without the spilling of blood or the pouring of water, doubtlessly bring salvation to one who has the will but not the way because death intervenes to be baptized. And just as in the former case no repentance remits sin if, when he can, he does not restore what he owes, so in the latter faith is of no avail, if, when he can, he does not receive the sacrament. He is shown not to have perfect faith, if he neglects to do so. True and full faith complies with all the commandments; this particular commandment is the foremost of them all. Rightly, then, anyone who refuses to obey will be thought of not as faithful, but as rebellious and disdainful. How can someone be faithful, if he holds a sacrament of God in contempt?


    The Feeneyites take well to read the entire passage, especially coming unto the end of it and witnessing St. Bernard both teach BOD, and simultaneously retain the deepest regard for water baptism (How can someone be faithful if he holds a sacrament of God in contempt?).  

    Likely, it is blinding pride which prevents the intellect from assenting to the Church's teaching on this matter-- it isn't difficult for the mind to grasp EENS and BOD; no, there is a perversion of will at play here.  Perhaps the holy and sublime words of St. Bernard can chisel away at hardened hearts.  

    Incidentally, I know that the person who compiled the hundred+ sources on BOD found some through Richard Ibranyi.  Ibranyi has written "books" against the "heresies" of Doctors of the Church, including St. Thomas Aquinas.  This is the end which awaits the Feeneyite.  The embryonic Feeneyite is content to merely dismiss BOD as "tolerated" (though he personally thinks it's wrong, maybe even heretical) but the fully developed Feeneyite does what Ibranyi does.  Y'all have your plane tickets ready for New Mexico?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Ladislaus

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    Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
    « Reply #91 on: June 11, 2014, 09:34:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    The most striking evidence against the denial of both BOD and invincible ignorance is that it is something that has never been attributed to any bishop of the Church.


    I guess that the Bishop Church Fathers who rejected it don't count.  And that's no evidence whatsoever since the vast majority of Church Fathers, Doctors, and theologians for the first, say, 1200-1300 years in the Church history are merely SILENT on the matter.  At the same time they unanimously uphold the necessity of Baptism for salvation.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
    « Reply #92 on: June 11, 2014, 09:35:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    The Feeneyites take well to read the entire passage, especially coming unto the end of it and witnessing St. Bernard both teach BOD, and simultaneously retain the deepest regard for water baptism (How can someone be faithful if he holds a sacrament of God in contempt?).


    And in this way they differ from 99% of modern BoDers.

    LoT has utter contempt for the Sacrament of Baptism, which he has refused to retract.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
    « Reply #93 on: June 11, 2014, 11:42:06 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    The Feeneyites take well to read the entire passage, especially coming unto the end of it and witnessing St. Bernard both teach BOD, and simultaneously retain the deepest regard for water baptism (How can someone be faithful if he holds a sacrament of God in contempt?).


    And in this way they differ from 99% of modern BoDers.

    LoT has utter contempt for the Sacrament of Baptism, which he has refused to retract.


    I keep finding out things about myself that I didn't know.  I have contempt for the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Here is the definition of contempt:  the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn.

    Sir, you are either intellectually dishonest, engaging in tactics not based in reality in order to manipulate the reader or ignorant beyond description about the reality.  

    I'll translate to you have no excuse for misunderstanding my point here:

    Saying I have contempt for the sacrament of Baptism does not prove that there is no exception to the salvation by water alone heresy the Feeneyites promote.  LoT has nothing to do with the correctness of your heresy or not.  Try to enter the civil realm by simply making your point rather than making such absurd, and what hope for your intellect's sake, dishonest statements.

    Carry on.   :cheers:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online Ladislaus

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    Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
    « Reply #94 on: June 11, 2014, 12:42:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I keep finding out things about myself that I didn't know.  I have contempt for the Sacrament of Baptism.


    Referring to the Sacrament derisively as "water and words" involves contempt for the Sacrament.


    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
    « Reply #95 on: June 11, 2014, 12:57:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Elena
    C'mon now, that is not a de fide statement on baptism of desire.  That is a statement on the requisites for baptism.  The word "without" applies to both subjects (the requisites) in the sentence as follows: One cannot have justification without the laver of regeneration.  One cannot have justification without the desire for it.  Hence, one cannot have justification without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it. Both laver and desire are necessary for baptism.  This is the clear interpretation of that sentence and it is impossible to view it otherwise, since doing so automatically negates the necessity of baptism , which renders the meaning of the sentence a haphazard view of some kind of faith alone belief for salvation and, contrarily, it negates the need for desire for baptism as if we could go around baptizing the unwilling. All that is condemned.  Since the sentence can only be viewed properly the way I've shown, it is not only common sense, but good will that gives up a bad idea, no matter who else holds the notion.  You cannot make a doctrine out of a sentence at the expense of doctrine.  


    Elena, can you provide any authorized sources that teach your interpretation of this passage of the Council of Trent?

    Offline umblehay anmay

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    Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
    « Reply #96 on: June 11, 2014, 01:05:25 PM »
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  • I've noticed that pro-BOD'ers have moved the attention away from the original question.....

    So getting back to it... Does BOD give the Grace of the Sacrament... most openly admit it doesn't,  in that it doesn't remit the need for purgatory for past actual sins based on the concept of BOD put forth by St. Thomas.  

    The question then should be a discussion of spiritual rebirth, and the necessity of being "born again" according to Trent...


    Trent Session 6, CHAPTER III.
    Who are justified through Christ.
    ….,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they NEVER would be justified


    So "NEVER" really means, "almost never" . . . .  no salvation outside the Church  really means "almost no salvation" . . . .

    and if you say they ARE incorporated into the Church through BOD then was Pope Pius wrong when he said...

    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration [water baptism] and profess the true faith.”40

    ?????????????????????????




    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
    « Reply #97 on: June 11, 2014, 02:28:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I keep finding out things about myself that I didn't know.  I have contempt for the Sacrament of Baptism.


    Referring to the Sacrament derisively as "water and words" involves contempt for the Sacrament.


    This could only be know by one who knows the inner workings of my mind.  It is the result of my contempt for the Feeneyite  heresy and the souls confused by people like you who keep spouting it.  

    Baptism is the most important Sacrament of the Church.  It is what incorporates one into the mystical body of Christ as member and enables him to receive the other sacraments.  More importantly it cleanse the soul of original sin and makes it possible for him to go to heaven.  

    Do you believe I was unaware of these facts?  

    If not, why on God's green earth would you claim I have contempt for it.  I have contempt for your heresy and the souls you mislead and confuse and scandalize.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church