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Author Topic: Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?  (Read 13048 times)

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Offline Joe Cupertino

Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
« Reply #95 on: June 11, 2014, 12:57:25 PM »
Quote from: Elena
C'mon now, that is not a de fide statement on baptism of desire.  That is a statement on the requisites for baptism.  The word "without" applies to both subjects (the requisites) in the sentence as follows: One cannot have justification without the laver of regeneration.  One cannot have justification without the desire for it.  Hence, one cannot have justification without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it. Both laver and desire are necessary for baptism.  This is the clear interpretation of that sentence and it is impossible to view it otherwise, since doing so automatically negates the necessity of baptism , which renders the meaning of the sentence a haphazard view of some kind of faith alone belief for salvation and, contrarily, it negates the need for desire for baptism as if we could go around baptizing the unwilling. All that is condemned.  Since the sentence can only be viewed properly the way I've shown, it is not only common sense, but good will that gives up a bad idea, no matter who else holds the notion.  You cannot make a doctrine out of a sentence at the expense of doctrine.  


Elena, can you provide any authorized sources that teach your interpretation of this passage of the Council of Trent?
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Offline umblehay anmay

Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
« Reply #96 on: June 11, 2014, 01:05:25 PM »
I've noticed that pro-BOD'ers have moved the attention away from the original question.....

So getting back to it... Does BOD give the Grace of the Sacrament... most openly admit it doesn't,  in that it doesn't remit the need for purgatory for past actual sins based on the concept of BOD put forth by St. Thomas.  

The question then should be a discussion of spiritual rebirth, and the necessity of being "born again" according to Trent...


Trent Session 6, CHAPTER III.
Who are justified through Christ.
….,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they NEVER would be justified


So "NEVER" really means, "almost never" . . . .  no salvation outside the Church  really means "almost no salvation" . . . .

and if you say they ARE incorporated into the Church through BOD then was Pope Pius wrong when he said...

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration [water baptism] and profess the true faith.”40

?????????????????????????



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Offline Lover of Truth

Does "baptism of desire" grant the grace of baptismspiritual rebirth?
« Reply #97 on: June 11, 2014, 02:28:29 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Lover of Truth
I keep finding out things about myself that I didn't know.  I have contempt for the Sacrament of Baptism.


Referring to the Sacrament derisively as "water and words" involves contempt for the Sacrament.


This could only be know by one who knows the inner workings of my mind.  It is the result of my contempt for the Feeneyite  heresy and the souls confused by people like you who keep spouting it.  

Baptism is the most important Sacrament of the Church.  It is what incorporates one into the mystical body of Christ as member and enables him to receive the other sacraments.  More importantly it cleanse the soul of original sin and makes it possible for him to go to heaven.  

Do you believe I was unaware of these facts?  

If not, why on God's green earth would you claim I have contempt for it.  I have contempt for your heresy and the souls you mislead and confuse and scandalize.  
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