To make it even more clear the Bull teaches that a Catholic who does not persevere in the Catholic Church cannot be saved even if he shed his blood for Christ.  It does not deny BOB in regards to those "joined" to the Church either by desire or as members.  A member has no need of BOB to be saved, though one "joined" to her through desire would benefit greatly from BOB.  This is clear to the objective observer.  In fact the Church teaches that BOB is a more perfect form of the one baptism than sacramental baptism as it most perfectly imitates Christ.  

If we were keeping count, this would be somewhere around the 42995th time you've had to twist the meaning of an infallible teaching in order for you to make it say something that it not only clearly does not say, but is also explicitly contradictory to what is infallibly taught.

Why don't you occupy your time and try with all your might to actually do the strictly Catholic thing for a change - defend the absolute necessity of the sacraments unto salvation - or do you actually think your championing salvation via No Sacrament At All is the Catholic thing to keep doing?

I hope that helps.

Unfortunately, it's exactly what I expected and it's very telling.

You cannot simply affirm the dogmas of the Church word for word with a simple "Yes" or "No" and without immediately launching into a three-paragraph dissertation on the "true meaning of each one".  Are you ashamed of the Church's dogmas?

If I ask you, as a Catholic, "Is there salvation outside the Church?"  YOUR ANSWER MUST BE NO.

If I ask you, as a Catholic, "Are the Sacraments necessary for salvation?" YOUR ANSWER MUST BE YES.

Anything else is of the devil, as Our Lord said.

At the end of the day, though, the discussion about BoD is a red herring.

It's an absolutely moot point when it comes to most Protestants and schismatics like the Orthodox ... since most of them are Baptized.

What's really the underlying issue is your refusal to accept the dogma EENS.

That's WHY you cling with white knuckles to BoD, not because you want to apply it to a catechumen who has embraced the Catholic faith and has all the necessary prerequisites for Baptism and is lacking nothing but the Sacrament itself.  What, have there been about two or three cases of such a scenario in the past few hundred years?

No, your true agenda is the undermining of EENS.  At the end of the day, you don't believe in it, and you don't believe in Traditional ecclesiology.  You do not believe in "one Church of the faithful" but rather in a gnostic invisible Pelagian Church of nice people everywhere.  You are Traditional Catholics in name only and Catholics in name only.  Your sensus fidei regarding Traditional Catholicism consists of the smells and the bells and a repugnance for the personality of Jorge Bergoglio.  At the end of the day, however, you are Vatican II Catholics in terms of belief and theology.

Well said, Ladislaus.

Almost without a fail, BOD (invincible ignorance) adherents  believe that Sacraments are optional. In doing this, they gravely sin against the Holy Ghost to despise the royal means of salvation offered to us by Christ Lord though the ONLY Church.  

These deniers of EENS believe one can be interiorly united to the Church and all sacraments can be taken invisibly with an inward disposition. Better to a visible member of the church, but one can also be an invisible member and so be saved, they say. That is to say that Baptism is optional which is infallibly condemned.

Loyal Catholics must defend the pristine purity of the Faith without the output of these modernists in disguise.

"There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the entire cycle of Catholic doctrine and yet by a single word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple Faith. He who dissents in a single point from divinely -revealed truth absolutely rejects all Faith" Pope Leo XIII

Some prefer matchbox theology and their own intellects to the reliable theological giants and infallible teaching's of the Popes.  That is their problem, not mine.  

Quote from: Ladislaus

That just means the dispositions are prerequisites for justification.  And you miss the crucial part.

Quote

justification itself... through the voluntary reception of the grace
...
the instrumental cause [of this justification] is the sacrament of baptism

Yes, I have read that so maybe it is the understanding of the instrumental cause.

Are you asserting the only way an adult can be justified is by the sacrament (water and words)?

How do you understand instrumental cause?

Yes, "The No Salvation Outside of Water and Words" "dogma" that describes the Feeneyites perfectly.

Then why do you stammer around the BOB issue?

Stammer?  I'm not the one who posts 5-page articles in an attempt to explain (or, rather, explain away) EENS.

Why do you force some to be in a position to where they have to either deny Christ in order to get baptized with the "No Salvation Outside of Water" "dogma" Feeney invented or be certainly damned for defending Christ but not getting baptized by the "No Salvation Outside of Water".  

Again with the stupid false dilemma that you believe yourself so clever for inventing.  God cannot be prevented by the "impossible" from granting salvation to His elect.  If He wills for someone to be baptized with water, then that person will be baptized with water.

You've never addressed this issue, but as with all things that are inconvenient to your position you simply ignore it.

Do you deny that God can bring water Baptism to anyone whom He wills to receive it?

To Father Kramer,

Do you believe that the novus ordo mass is just another form of the mass, or a counterfeit?  Satan uses counterfeits to subtly pass for the original.  Often, we know because Church teaching is obviously opposed to a counterfeit, like Protestant churches or pastors.  (Note that or is inclusive here) Sometimes, we know simply because of the fruits of the counterfeit.  Let's consider some of the fruits of baptism of desire.


The one good "fruit" of baptism of desire (BOD) they say, is salvation. But can it deliver the salvation promised? BOD is not a formal teaching of the church and not a doctrine. Consider some of the other fruits of BOD, all of which are destructive to the faith.  Below is a partial list of the fruits of BOD.  

By their fruits you will know them.... Mathew 7:16

THE FRUITS OF BAPTISM OF DESIRE

Baptism of desire (BOD) automatically denies the necessity of the sacrament of baptism for salvation.

BOD mocks the sacrament of baptism because it is not a sacrament. It is not an outward sign instituted by Christ. It is not a gateway to the other sacraments, does not remit sin, does not impart the baptismal character, all things the church teaches are part of justification and necessary for salvation, and which are the very characteristics of true baptism.

BOD promotes the Protestant heresy that faith alone saves.

BOD leads many Catholics to believe abortion is a source of hope for infants since infants are not guilty of actual sin.

BOD contradicts the Catholic teaching: One Lord, one faith, one baptism, since, BOD, by definition, is not the same as baptism, but another baptism entirely.

Advocates admit BOD does not make one a member of the Church.  The church teaches infallibly that there is no salvation outside the Church, so BOD cannot save.

BOD promotes laxity and indifferentism because many Catholics often rest in another's desire for heaven rather than do the work to help get the person baptized.

BOD is nothing like baptism because the grace is not assured.

BOD is nothing like baptism because the water and words are unnecessary.

BOD attempts to reward perseverance in sin.

BOD is not a sacrament, nor has it been defined, yet BOD is said to replace  baptism, the one sacrament that is necessary for salvation.

BOD suggests the God is impotent, because due to circuмstance, the Almighty might not be able to provide the water.

BOD implies God is not author of life and death because people meet their death in an untimely manner, before they can receive true baptism.

BOD makes liars of popes and saints who teach no one who dies outside the Catholic Church is saved.

BOD is said to save some outside the Church, making the doctrine of "No Salvation Outside the Church" a false teaching.

BOD mocks the Holy Spirit Who tells us in scripture to be washed for the remission of sins when baptism of desire neither remits sin, nor employs water.

BOD makes Jesus a liar, Who says: "Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema".

BOD mocks scripture 1 Peter 3:21 a verse that says "baptism now saves you" by pretending that an unprovided death can do the same.

BOD undermines the Council of Trent which took great care to define the form and matter of baptism in very specific detail.

BOD denies the teaching that a person must be baptized by another.

BOD denies this canon in Trent: "If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema' by removing the need for water.

BOD is a fine example of how one twists into a metaphor the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "unless one is born of water and the Holy Spirit, let him be anathema."

BOD voids another infallible canon in Trent that states: "If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema."  

BOD by its very definition undermines Christ's missionary mandate.

BOD suggests God is unmerciful unless He contradicts His Word and Church teaching and provide salvation without baptism.

BOD is a nothing more than Satan's counterfeit for a necessary sacrament.


Note: I have a revised version of this on youtube called Fruits of Baptism of Desire.

--Elena